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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
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21
Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 12:08

Villagetoraiseachild · 25/07/2025 11:54

Delighted to be back and reading this and finding that things are looking good for SP.

Have been missing in action as have been involved in a tribunal (not gender but justice based) of my own and found out yesterday that I won my case, so i now have the bandwidth to re- engage here.

I would never have had the courage or knowledge to have gone through a tribunal without all that I have gleaned on this site and specifically in these threads. Thank you to you all, from the heart.

Celebrate Hardly Art GIF by Tacocat

Yay!

myplace · 25/07/2025 12:09

Huh. My notes are inconsistent. Weird.
Huh, they look like I made it up or at best nipped back to up the ante a bit. Sad times.

BezMills · 25/07/2025 12:09

we resume:
J - JB (ACTUAL FORENSIC GUY) you will take an oath

JB - takes oath
CE - morning JB, I'll be asking for C. name and occupation
JB James Borwick, JKB computers, provide expert evidence

Fifer : I love a guy who just uses his initials plus "Computers" tae describe his business. Nae need for some wanky shite like ENERGON SYSTEM ANALYTICS or that.

CE - called upon for what
JB 20 years giving forensic evidence, criminal - civil organising bundle

Fifer : pushes glesses up nose. Sits up a wee bit straighter. In the presence ae a loddie that kens es ingins eh ken.

CE - 1661 - first pg or your report, you commented on 3 things n report, contemporaneousness of phone note, sync issue and requirement/limit of forensic evidence. First issue - contemporaneousness (cpn),
JB - 1671 - these are printouts of notes given to me, in chron order
JB - so this is first note 310am 16th oct 2023.
CE - when do you say it was created
JB 310 16th oct 23 CE - what do we see here
JB - 313am ???
CE - whats the diff?
JB - highlighted with boxes, only thing changed was name nurse (?) to nurse sandie peggie. made 18th dec '23

CE - 18/12/23 working nights, wont make eye contact, acknowldege, engage can feel hostility - when added
JB - same time, not on previous note, added 5:15 18th dec
CE - bottom text added 18th dec'23
JB - yes
CE - 1673 - what do we see
JB - version of note ?dec '23
JB - 251223 leaving shift at
CE - next page
JB 1244am 25th dec '23
CE - next
JB - in changing all chating, leaves, F leaves I think its weird , sandie hates being in CR with me but whatever
CE - think on 1674 - more highlighting from you. summarise what versions tell you

Fifer : Speccie Loddie is aboot saying that he's lookin at a lang term fabrication project the like ae which Fife hasnae seen since they shipped the last ae the Big North Sea Rigs doon the Firth.

ItsCoolForCats · 25/07/2025 12:10

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 12:01

Mr Borthwick is Claimant's witness. Immaculately dressed, cleaned his spectacles carefully and replaced the cloth in the case, and the case in his inside jacket pocket on arrival. Did a visual scan of room and clocked the camera quickly.

I like him already and expect great things.

Great. I didn't realise there would be any more witnesses for the claimant.

Lunde · 25/07/2025 12:10

Is it saying that another nurse name was removed and SP inserted?

possomblossom · 25/07/2025 12:10

Villagetoraiseachild · 25/07/2025 11:54

Delighted to be back and reading this and finding that things are looking good for SP.

Have been missing in action as have been involved in a tribunal (not gender but justice based) of my own and found out yesterday that I won my case, so i now have the bandwidth to re- engage here.

I would never have had the courage or knowledge to have gone through a tribunal without all that I have gleaned on this site and specifically in these threads. Thank you to you all, from the heart.

💐🏆

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 25/07/2025 12:10

PlasticAcrobat · 25/07/2025 12:04

Interesting from the Herald:

Rebecca McCurdy has been in Dundee this morning. She has been looking through the bundle and has details of the changes made to the logs. Some really interesting discoveries which we will share out soon.

🍿

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:10

JB - set ou tin order, showing what was added on particular dates
CE - what does add/edit removal of notes tell you
JB not contemporaneous, been changed over time

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 12:10

Hahahahahaha "not contemporaneous"

I am recalling vividly SP's cross examination when JR emphatically and smugly told SP and the court that the Fife IX preferred Dr Upton's account because he kept contemporaneous notes.

Please let's have a Sandie and Mum laughing photo with tonight's headlines!

rebmacesrevda · 25/07/2025 12:10

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 25/07/2025 12:07

I'm not sure where I heard it, so may not be credible, but what I'd heard was that if someone is recalling incidents in the past tense, they're more likely to be credible, but if someone recalls instances in the present tense, it is likely that they're making it up as they go along because they themselves at that point in time are living in the moment, ie thinking on the spot.

Thank you! I was thinking earlier that I'd read about changing tenses as a sign of lying, but I couldn't remember the detail.

Largesso · 25/07/2025 12:11

Angrymum22 · 25/07/2025 11:45

Having gone through a legal case ( patient sued me for negligence) the legal advise is always to be accurate with notes and omit any “feelings” or subjectivity. State the facts and not try to guess what the other party is thinking or feeling. In my case the patient changed their story so many times to try and fit the emerging evidence that their legal team pulled out.

I am wondering whether this forensic analysis of DUs evidence is actually being used to distance NHSFife from DU. Maybe since the first part of the hearing it has become more evident that DUs story is springing huge leaks particularly the IT trails. Are they trying to throw DU from the ship? Maybe restructure their own actions based on misinformation/lies and try and realign their defence towards apology and payout in light of the SC ruling and current advice re single sex facilities.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the HR witnesses have been encouraged to act dim over gender policy in order to claim confusion and ignorance. I can’t believe that they did not have a policy re staff changing and gender. Having just endured a CQC inspection, all our policies are up to date and robust, including addressing safe spaces for changing. We have comprehensive apps that are used to inform staff and any updates to policy are published and staff have to read ad and sign them electronically. They are easy to access through the app for reference. I’m surprised that NHSFife do not use similar so staff can check policy in real time.

Interesting perspective.

I think NC was asserting yesterday that the delay in the investigation was because the board were weighing up the possibility of UC's claims, relating to the patient safety, might get him in trouble if they were used because they weren't themselves certain they stood up and if they were, in fact, lies or at the very least embellishments then that could land him in serious dog doo, and them by association.

My feeling is that KS encouraged their use and that's why she was so invested in tampering with the witness. If she had persuaded the board they were good to go then she has a lot more on the line than we thought.

I think JR called this witness only because she has seen the expert witness of JB which undermines the evidence of DU and his notes. She has to attempt some damage limitation.

The reason J denied the phone by handed over to NC was because DU offered to do the downloads himself. This guy was used as a patsy, essentially, to add an air of credibility to the process which clearly isn't there. It is very insulting to the J's trust I think.

It is interesting in my view that all these problems are being revealed because NC and CE and MG have been ALL OVER IT.

If JR had invested the same in examining the documentation given to her by NHS Fife from the off she might of, as they say, made better choices.

ExitPursuedByABare · 25/07/2025 12:11

If I read through notes on my phone they often then appear in the wrong date order which confuses me.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:11

Lunde · 25/07/2025 12:10

Is it saying that another nurse name was removed and SP inserted?

not necessarily - could have written 'she' and replaced with SP's name.

GreenFriedTomato · 25/07/2025 12:11

So his contemporaneous notes weren't just that. He added bits and pieces at later dates it seems

ickky · 25/07/2025 12:12
Dance Celebrate GIF by Holler Studios

Oh dear It looks like the squirrels have been let loose on DU contemporaneousness notes.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 25/07/2025 12:12

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:10

JB - set ou tin order, showing what was added on particular dates
CE - what does add/edit removal of notes tell you
JB not contemporaneous, been changed over time

Explosion Badass GIF

Bingo!

CriticalCondition · 25/07/2025 12:12

JB has gone through the phone notes and highlighted all the bits that were added.
With the dates and times they were added. Not contemporaneous.
This is gold .

Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 12:12

NOT contemporaneous?

Tell me it's not so!!

Surely Dr Upton wouldn't have gone back at a later date to make the evidence fit the crime?

SternJoyousBeev2 · 25/07/2025 12:12

Chariothorses · 25/07/2025 11:10

Just putting the transcript of Upton's phone notes on this new thread too as it's being discussed - you can read the rest of the Herald's free blog on their website.

10:52am
It's hard to keep up with this without seeing the analysis by Mr Borthwick that the laywers are asking Mr Donaldson about
What we do have is the content of Dr Upton's 'weird incident' notes as they appear in the bundle. This is our Political Editor Andrew Learmonth's transcript.

A weird incident. 26/08/23
Nurse Sandie Peggy walked into changing room while I was changing. Looked taken aback. I said, hey. She said, hi. Then abruptly walked out. Once I got changed, I left the changing room and she was waiting outside. She then entered the changing room despite having witnessed another doctor enter. In the meantime, I know from hearing this other doctor mention it that she and the nurse had a conversation in the changing room. All very odd. Can't help but feel slightly off, upset, put off by this, disappointed as appears that she chose not to enter because of me and didn't think I belonged there. Sad times.
25/10/23
She did it again. Sandie was in the changing room, and I walked in Christina, consultant came in too. Christina, and I chatting. Presumably Sandie left, as I then found her waiting outside to go back. And once I left, didn't even say hi. Weird.
18/12/23
working nights. One week, eye contact. One acknowledge my presence, not a direct conversation. Yet I can feel this dismissal hostility. Needed to ask Sandy a question about child patient left before being seen as she triaged him, couldn't find her. HCA, Rihanna offered to look for her. Both came back. Rihanna asked Sandy of any concerns. Were both in front of me. Sandy didn't look at or otherwise engage with me. Responded. She had no concerns. I said, thanks. I needed to know for the letter, she did not acknowledge Me, either through words or eye contact, and left her area.
25/12/23
Leaving shifts at midnight. I say goodbye to everyone, including in rhesus, where Sandie is, she starts at 7pm so it's the middle of her shift, me and Shwayts and Fiona ENP, in the changing room. We're all chatting. Sandie comes in, chats a bit to Fiona. I think this is weird, as Sandie hates being in the changing room with me, but whatever Shwayts leaves.
I go to the bathroom. Fiona leaves. Leave toilet, and she's still hovering. Start washing my hands, and she says she doesn't think it's appropriate that I use the changing room. Says she feels intimidated by me. Says this is woman's changing room, and lots of others feel this way.
I explain, I'm very sorry she feels intimidated but I've been told I can change here. She keeps telling me she finds me intimidating. Says she understands I'm going through some process, but I'm not a woman and can't be in here.
She asked me, What are your chromosomes? I explained, I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I'm a woman, and I'm allowed to use this space if she has concerns, could she please raise them fromally as do not think this most appropriate time or place for this conversation.
She continues to tell me she's intimidated. Lots of people are talking about it and are all intimidated. She tells me I'm not a woman. I say, no one else has raised concern with me, but I told that if they had concerns they should raise them formally through the proper channels.
She stated, maybe she's only one who feels able to. she tells me she won't change in front of men. Tells me she's a bad history of men. I say, I understand and sympathise. She cuts me off and says, I don't understand and I don't sympathise enough, or I wouldn't' be changing here.
I again state I'm sorry she's intimidated, but I do not want to have this conversation here. I don't think it's appropriate. If she or others have concerns, they should raise it formally. I tell her, I'm not sure what I can do to resolve this. I'm sorry she feels intimidated.
She tells me I should not change here. She tells me woman to have a right to feel safe. She says it's just like that person in prisons.
I again, tell her this is not an appropriate time. I do not wish to talk to her about it now. I don't think a discussion between two people the end of a long shift is productive or the best way to resolve this.
She will not let it go. We go back and forth a few times, each time I repeat my previous statement about appropriate channels and formal conversation. Eventually, she tells me she will raise this.
I leave. I am distraught. I immediately go to find Elspeth. I explained through tears what's happened in the background. I explained, I understand her fears. I sympathised, but I feel attacked and cornered.
I explained, this is the first time I've experienced anything like this in person.
Elspeth tells me she is sorry, that I am not a difficult person, nor am I being difficult. Elspeth is kind and supportive. We agree she will speak to Kate Searle and Esther SCN.
I have time to decide on what I want to do about this. Agree this is an unacceptable way to behave, and personal attacks are wrong. Acknowledge lack of NHS Fife policy, but consultant team are behind me on this.
28/12/23
Supposed to be in with Niamh as a buddy system. Niamh's train cancelled. Enter changing room. Sarah reg and Zoe nurse there somebody in the loo, inevitably it's Sandie. Zoe leaving. Sarah steps into bathroom so I having just taken off my shoes, pick up all my stuff and leave immediately. In just my socks take refuge in the plaster room. I'm sure she noticed, but I'm not giving her the chance to try anything. Got changed in

I cannot see how Sandie was aggressive in CR incident even by Upton’s own account. And I find it strange hat he wrote such a long note on his phone as well as his email to KS. It definitely looks, along with his other notes, that he has form for logging shit in order to make accusations about people.

No mention of tears in the CR but he turns them on as soon as he goes looking for EP?

maltravers · 25/07/2025 12:12

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:10

JB - set ou tin order, showing what was added on particular dates
CE - what does add/edit removal of notes tell you
JB not contemporaneous, been changed over time

So he changed them. Did he claim they were contemporaneous or just heavily imply..? Sad times for DU.

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:12

CE - what do the versions mean for events of 18th dec?
JB - added later so not contemporaneous

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 25/07/2025 12:12

GreenFriedTomato · 25/07/2025 12:11

So his contemporaneous notes weren't just that. He added bits and pieces at later dates it seems

Sad times.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 12:12

Note that J just interrupted CE "looks like you're leading" and CE immediately said "sorry" and changed tack.

Hope the KC in the room is learning from CE's example.

This is beautiful. Amazingly well set up to have a young woman very respectfully helping a 60-yo witness to shine with the damning evidence.

Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 12:12

Witness couldn't replicate whatever they are talking about.

eatfigs · 25/07/2025 12:13

Is this the guy who did a forensic analysis of Upton's phone? Or is he interpreting evidence already extracted from the phone? Or both?

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