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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 10:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
PrettyDamnCosmic · 25/07/2025 12:01

Firealarms · 25/07/2025 11:46

As someone young and tech literate this was my immediate thought, I’m surprised the IT guy was like it’s a mysterious error that can’t be replicated.

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As someone old & tech literate that was my immediate thought too. There may not be anything dodgy with the files but CE is doing a good job of chucking mud to call into question the integrity of the files.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 12:01

Mr Borthwick is Claimant's witness. Immaculately dressed, cleaned his spectacles carefully and replaced the cloth in the case, and the case in his inside jacket pocket on arrival. Did a visual scan of room and clocked the camera quickly.

I like him already and expect great things.

Pluvia · 25/07/2025 12:01

Angrymum22 · 25/07/2025 11:45

Having gone through a legal case ( patient sued me for negligence) the legal advise is always to be accurate with notes and omit any “feelings” or subjectivity. State the facts and not try to guess what the other party is thinking or feeling. In my case the patient changed their story so many times to try and fit the emerging evidence that their legal team pulled out.

I am wondering whether this forensic analysis of DUs evidence is actually being used to distance NHSFife from DU. Maybe since the first part of the hearing it has become more evident that DUs story is springing huge leaks particularly the IT trails. Are they trying to throw DU from the ship? Maybe restructure their own actions based on misinformation/lies and try and realign their defence towards apology and payout in light of the SC ruling and current advice re single sex facilities.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the HR witnesses have been encouraged to act dim over gender policy in order to claim confusion and ignorance. I can’t believe that they did not have a policy re staff changing and gender. Having just endured a CQC inspection, all our policies are up to date and robust, including addressing safe spaces for changing. We have comprehensive apps that are used to inform staff and any updates to policy are published and staff have to read ad and sign them electronically. They are easy to access through the app for reference. I’m surprised that NHSFife do not use similar so staff can check policy in real time.

I'm not sure how this would work because Jane Russell is representing both DU and NHS Fife, IIRC? NHSF is paying for his defence, I thought. Although I suppose if DU is found to have manipulated his phone evidence and is exposed not just as a liar but someone who's tried to impede justice by faking record, he'll have torpedoed his defence himself and JR can focus on saving as much face and money as possible for NHSF. I'm already imagining the headlines: NHS Fife brought to its knees by rogue doctor. Or doctors: Searle seems to have been involved in evidence tampering, doesn't she?

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:02

CE - morning JB, I'll be asking for C. name and occupation
JB James Borwick, JKB computers, provide expert evidence
CE - called upon for what
JB 20 years giving forensic evidence, criminal - civil

The name is Borwick, James Borwick.

myplace · 25/07/2025 12:02

SidewaysOtter · 25/07/2025 12:00

Shades of that thread where some young IT chap came on here and offered to 'help' all the Silly Mummies of Mumsnet with their IT. Forgetting, of course, that any number of women on here could be - and were - IT bods of more experience than him.

My favourite response was "Thank god you're here, I've just been bashing my tits against the keyboard and hoping for the best" Grin

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That is a highlight from the days of yore. I was there, too. So funny.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/07/2025 12:02

Jellycatspyjamas · 25/07/2025 11:56

Having now read the transcript of the phone notes as recorded, even if they're 100% accurate accounts of what took place I don't see that SP's behaviour is especially blameworthy.

I think it’s fair enough for her to explain her discomfort at him being there but if she continued to make the same point after he said he felt uncomfortable and for her to raise it through formal channels, it becomes harassing.

I also think her naming her discomfort is right and proper but to say there are lots of other people who feel the same way, without naming them or having their permission to share that could be seen as creating a hostile environment. He then has to work in a place where people are apparently unhappy with him but has no way of addressing it.

I fully support SP in terms of the tribunal but the way she tried to tackle this with him, if as recorded, was clumsy at best.

I see why DU was upset by it. But even his own account doesn't come anywhere close to justifying a suspension. It might have been appropriate for a manager to have words with her; that's as far as I'd go.

If you take the view (as most of us here do) that he was not lawfully permitted to use the changing room at all, then it rather changes the calculus. If the conduct is her conversation, and the effect is that DU felt "harassed" then it is no longer "reasonable for the conduct to have that effect" in the words of the Act.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 25/07/2025 12:03

Londonmummy66 · 25/07/2025 11:57

I don't seem to be able to get in to Nitter using either of the links in the OP - does anyone have another instance that is working?

Try this - nitter.poast.org

ickky · 25/07/2025 12:03

ARGH Can't hear him

Canijustsayonething · 25/07/2025 12:04

CatKings · 25/07/2025 11:51

I wonder if Peggie is the first person who has actually challenged and not affirmed him. His parents, his wife, his boss have all told him what a convincing lady he is.
I’ve seen clips of men who don’t even slightly pass convinced they do because no one challenges them (probably because they are scared). So he’s basically freaked out because he knows he isn’t a woman and doesn’t pass as one but has been happily in his bubble.

she said others were uncomfortable, I take it no one bothered to identify these women and they are hiding because they think they will also be suspended.

yes, i was wondering who these 'others' were that SP mentioned when she spoke to DU in the CR...they obviously felt they couldn't speak out and now with this shit-show I'm not surprised they didn't put their heads above the parapet. I so wish they had have done though. Sad times...😉

MarieDeGournay · 25/07/2025 12:04

Although I was amused by the judge's 'You will take an oath' being liked 'Ye'll have had yer tea', I HOPE he is being mis-transcribed and he asks 'will you take an oath, or would you prefer to assert'?

PlasticAcrobat · 25/07/2025 12:04

Interesting from the Herald:

Rebecca McCurdy has been in Dundee this morning. She has been looking through the bundle and has details of the changes made to the logs. Some really interesting discoveries which we will share out soon.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 25/07/2025 12:04

For observer, does it look to you that some of the bundle is covering one of Mr Borthwick's mics? Sound is muffled not like last time, sounds like mic is covered?

EDIT - it was, and J has just addressed the same pls ignore!

NHSFifemissingriskassessment · 25/07/2025 12:04

Come on James Borwick ! Let’s have a proper knowledgeable witness for a change

Hoardasurass · 25/07/2025 12:04

NHSFifemissingriskassessment · 25/07/2025 11:54

I think any future employer of Upton needs to be wary of his contemporaneous note taking. He could possibly be in permanent litigation with employers and employees.

Maybe even shops he goes into, imagine ‘M&S Mabel didn’t say that I looked gorgeous in the skimpy lingerie I was trying on. She refused to look at me parading around the changing rooms. She hurt my feelings’ He might have JR on speed dial

There was something in the Scottish daily mail printed paper a couple of days ago about him having form for this sort of behaviour and note taking

Original poster
nauticant · 25/07/2025 12:05

PD touched on this but can you imagine what went on in NHSF when, on a first examination of Upton's notes, it looked like they'd been made long after the events that they were supposed to be contemporaneous with.

OP posts:
maltravers · 25/07/2025 12:05

PlasticAcrobat · 25/07/2025 11:57

Describing Peggie's actions in leaving the changing room, and in not chatting to him, as "weird" is, well ... weird. He is pretending that he doesn't know or guess why she might feel uncomfortable about his presence. It is possible that he might be trying to blind himself to the reason why, but it strikes me as more likely that he was writing this for the benefit of others.

For me that makes it less likely that the notes were contemporaneous. I hate myself for speculating like this but it is just so strikingly odd that he would pretend not to know why she was uncomfortable. That involves, not just denying that he is a man, but also disregarding the fact that he is, in his terminology, a trans woman.

I imagine the point is to suggest everyone/the majority see him as a woman, so SP is the outlier/in the wrong/outside mainstream opinion/a transphobe.

Boiledbeetle · 25/07/2025 12:05

They've freed his mic from the bundle!

maltravers · 25/07/2025 12:06

PlasticAcrobat · 25/07/2025 12:04

Interesting from the Herald:

Rebecca McCurdy has been in Dundee this morning. She has been looking through the bundle and has details of the changes made to the logs. Some really interesting discoveries which we will share out soon.

Oh my, don’t leave it there guys!

Jellycatspyjamas · 25/07/2025 12:06

MyAmpleSheep · 25/07/2025 12:02

I see why DU was upset by it. But even his own account doesn't come anywhere close to justifying a suspension. It might have been appropriate for a manager to have words with her; that's as far as I'd go.

If you take the view (as most of us here do) that he was not lawfully permitted to use the changing room at all, then it rather changes the calculus. If the conduct is her conversation, and the effect is that DU felt "harassed" then it is no longer "reasonable for the conduct to have that effect" in the words of the Act.

Show quote history

I absolutely agree suspension is ridiculous, at most it might have merited a chat with her line manager but in most places it would have been a “know when to step back” chat in the context of addressing SPs legitimate concern. But I recognise they weren’t interested in her legitimate concern.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/07/2025 12:06

nauticant · 25/07/2025 12:05

PD touched on this but can you imagine what went on in NHSF when, on a first examination of Upton's notes, it looked like they'd been made long after the events that they were supposed to be contemporaneous with.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing notes at a later date. As long as you also make a note of the date you write them. "August 23: note about what happened on July 15...."

Sad times.

Lunde · 25/07/2025 12:06

Added SPs name to an October note in December!

KateShugakIsALegend · 25/07/2025 12:07

Villagetoraiseachild · 25/07/2025 11:54

Delighted to be back and reading this and finding that things are looking good for SP.

Have been missing in action as have been involved in a tribunal (not gender but justice based) of my own and found out yesterday that I won my case, so i now have the bandwidth to re- engage here.

I would never have had the courage or knowledge to have gone through a tribunal without all that I have gleaned on this site and specifically in these threads. Thank you to you all, from the heart.

Amazing, well done you

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 25/07/2025 12:07

Mmmnotsure · 25/07/2025 11:29

A really annoying aspect of Upton’s phone notes is his inability to keep the same tense. You’d have something to say about that if you were analysing it as a bit of creative writing.

I'm not sure where I heard it, so may not be credible, but what I'd heard was that if someone is recalling incidents in the past tense, they're more likely to be credible, but if someone recalls instances in the present tense, it is likely that they're making it up as they go along because they themselves at that point in time are living in the moment, ie thinking on the spot.

Original poster
nauticant · 25/07/2025 12:07

JR is going to have a nightmare trying to catch JB out when it'll be on subtle tech points she won't really understand.

OP posts:
Lunde · 25/07/2025 12:08

JB - so this is first note 310am 16th oct 2023.
CE - when do you say it was created
JB 310 16th oct 23
CE - what do we see here JB - 313am ???
CE - whats the diff?
JB - highlighted with boxes, only thing changed was name nurse (?) to nurse sandie peggie. made 18th dec '2

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