NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #42

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

It was this or ExclamationMarksAreViolence. Hard choice.

you can tell I'm behind, had to paint a bench! <oops>

At least whatever NC brings out in cross won't be buried in the Scottish press by Trump's visit today. Rather than all the filibustering JR should have considered that a late Friday afternoon plus bigger national events happening would have been better timing from a publicity perspective.

I think someone was rude about pak choi earlier. Sad times.

Upton must be nearly a foot taller than Sandie.

The reason it matters is it goes to the credibility of DU and his account of what happened. Fife will want to argue that their actions were reasonable and proportionate given a complex interaction of rights and legal uncertainty pre the FWS case. If, as it appears, Fife was working off information that was being constructed to bolster the complaint then either they were misled or complicit (ie there is no way their process could be fair because one party was being allowed to rely on amended information). In addition, one interpretation open to the panel is that DU tampered with his evidence in an attempt to attack SP.

In any event DU’s contemporaneous evidence appears less reliable. As a general rule contemporaneous notes would have more weight than evidence given some time after the event just because memories fade and recollections get tainted by info learnt at a later date.

I definitely think that Upton will have made up the bit about chromosomes, because it's the Trans go to explanation. And hence the people at Fife making absolute fools of themselves when they tell us they can't be sure what sex they are.

She allowed her registration to lapse by not paying her annual retention fee as she hadn't engaged with revalidation. This is why on the register for it says "Not Registered - Administrative Reason" while her husband's entry has "Not Registered - Erased after Fitness to Practise panel hearing".
I'm retired but I informed the GMC so my entry on the register states "Not Registered - Having relinquished registration"

The repeated attempts to brand SP as racist and homophobic were bad enough. From a barrister, this is far worse. She is attempting to claim that two barristers, a solicitor and an expert witness are corrupt with no supporting evidence at all. I would really like her to have to answer to the Bar Standards Board for this.

The reverence awarded to drs is really quite stomach churning. KS and MC so sure that because Upton is a Dr he can be nothing other than trustworthy. How do nurses put up with this? It's not just drs either, as you see it with other professions 'he's a dr/lawyer/accountant/head teacher etc so he must be trustworthy and of good character." All these professionals are still human beings and fallible. There are good and bad in every walk of life.

Yes. I’m sure it would be a question a lot of patients would ask if they are facing a bone marrow transplant and there was a risk of changing sex as a result. It would be interesting to see if there are any trans people out there who have transitioned post transplant. Maybe the fact it has never been reported or used by the trans movement suggests it’s not a thing.
Otherwise, surely, along with cosmetic and reconstruction surgery a bone marrow transplant would be on the list.

It can affect hormones though but we know that hormone levels are not involved gender ID since the decision to take hormones comes after the decision to change gender. Isn’t there a period of time TRAs have to ID as opposite sex before hormones are prescribed?

Och aye the moo?

I'm sure all the people who actually need a bone marrow transplant would love that...

A sacred caste within a sacred caste?

I don't believe there was anything about chromosomes in Upton's...ahem!..contemporaneous notes. Unless I missed it.

I presume if J and the panel decide on balance of probability the DU has not told truth then they are less inclined to believe his version of other events such as CR encounter?
And I take it if they consider Fife were at fault in suspending Sandie and the way she was treated they won’t really care if that was based on untruthful info from DU? They will still find against Fife?

JR may rue the fact that her ques elicited the fact that MC knew that SP held gender critical views but did nothing to protect or balance SP's own protected characteristics.

Bit of an own goal from JR? Perhaps she was expecting MC not to know as nobody else has admitted to knowing anything about SP's views.

Did MC def say XYY is Klinefelters? That's wrong - Klinefelters is usually XXY but a man with more X chromosomes (ie XXXY) would also usually be given that diagnosis

I'd never heard of XYY - Jacobs syndrome - apparently usually undiagnosed unless the man has learning difficulties - increased risk of LD and other issues but many men have no impact from the extra Y chromosome so disputed as to whether we should call it a syndrome at all (source: Wikipedia)

Affected people are men so this is all irrelevant anyway

Just a Q about the Herald live blog.

I thought a few people said it was free, but it's paywalled for me?

MC seemed to want to show that she was one of those clever doctors, not like the previous bumbling fools. Not sure it's gone that well for Fife or Upton.

MC has said she knew SP had gender critical views (the only one who has) - does this mean she should have been considering Sandie's PC, too? (In addition to sex, obvs)

PS: can confirm BezMills is male - though he's been known to wear a skirt*

*kilt

The Scotsman live blog is free. That's what I've been reading.

It's midnight, in the middle of the xmas eve A&E shift (which is not NYE, but probably still qualifies for the 'absolute carnage' label), and she's having to do a quick change - mid menstrual flood - before diving back in. She just wants him out of the room so she can get on with it.

She doesn't have time for ego-stroking fluff or a carefully considered statement delivered at a pre-booked meeting with her manager (with whom she has already raised the issue twice and been told to suck it up).

For someone tired, annoyed and frustrated, in those circumstances, I think she was remakably restrained. As you'd expect from an experienced A&E nurse.

And she had to repeat herself because he wouldn't leave.

Digression, but on the bone-marrow thing, i read a report the other that there are techniques to insert a third party's DNA into a foetus, with the purpose of protecting agaisnt some diseases/health issues.

Ah, here 'tis:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65538866

I think JR is very worried that DU’s alleged deliberate falsification of the “contemporaneous” notes will scupper the case.

Obviously, the case is scuppered because NHS Fife had no policies, didn’t follow the law, didn’t consult with female nurses, the SC ruling (which the judge must consider and will not challenge), they didn’t follow their procedures, they ran an investigation then abandoned it due to bias, SP’s conduct is not suspension-worthy, SP’s GC belief was not considered, breach of confidentiality, and all the rest - I am bound to have missed something.

But DU editing notes to show he did or didn’t say something, particularly with respect to patient safety, and doing it on purpose and trying to hide the amendments, has put NHS Fife under pressure because he should be facing disciplinary action as a result. They have relied on his actions (allegedly in good faith), they’ve been made to look ridiculous because they don’t know what sex they are, and they’ve been embarrassed in court on numerous occasions, when they could have (and should have) told him to use a separate changing room right at the beginning.

Imagine defending someone this venal and then discovering he has lied about it. Mind you, he’s lying about being a woman, so they shouldn’t be that surprised.

Aside from the blatant lack of consideration for SP’s privacy, safety and dignity and her protected beliefs, which the courts keep saying is illegal, this case has shown how the hospital has no idea how to run its own HR processes.

And then, and then, they realise they are defending a liar.

He said she asked about his chromosomes.

😥😥 Very sad times and I feel your pain.

Sad times here too as I get home from the GP with a second week's worth of antibiotics for my second bout of lower leg cellulitis in three months. I feel discriminated against by staphylococcus. 😔