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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

1000 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 18:33

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:15

Beth Upton specifically complained about her refusing to get changed in front of him.

No.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:20

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:19

No that's not clear at all.

They suspended DU and look what has happened to them.

The political, legal and policy context in the UK at the moment is exceptionally hostile to trans people.

I am very hostile towards people who don't respect women's sex based rights and who continue to flout the law even though it has now been spelled out to them in very large print using brightly coloured crayons.

OP posts:
Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:21

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:20

I am very hostile towards people who don't respect women's sex based rights and who continue to flout the law even though it has now been spelled out to them in very large print using brightly coloured crayons.

Yes I hear your hostility. I think it's wildly unreasonable and completely irrational, likewise your interpretation of the law.

WarrenTofficier · 25/07/2025 09:22

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:15

She wasn't required to take her clothes off in front of DU. That's not what happened.

Sandie left the change room on previous occasions and waited until Dr U left. This was noted in the Dr's book of naughty women and used to make the case against Sandie. Mangers have confirmed this during the tribunal. Sandie reported her concerns to management, they didn't nothing.

On Christmas Eve Sandie needed to change her bloodied clothing I'm not sure how she could achieve this without removing them. The 6foot plus, male bodied 20 something claims he was cornered by the 5'3 50 year old woman but also places himself in his own testimony as being between Sandie and the door.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:24

Tandora · 25/07/2025 08:21

A trans woman cannot be reduced to "a man saying he is a woman". That is not a reasonable characterisation of what it is to be trans, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.

Trans women are not threats. They are not a threat to woman: ethnic minority, religious, abused or otherwise.

That is literally the only thing a trans woman is. There are no other criteria.

You do not have to have gender dysphoria to be trans, there is no definition of a gender identity or any test to determine what someone's gender identity is, there is absolutely no proof required. We are repeatedly told that people are who they say they are.

Which means you cannot define a trans woman as anything other than a male person who says they identify as a woman.

What other parameters could you possibly add to this definition to make it more accurate?

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:24

Still waiting for more of on how ‘transness’ reduces threat btw.

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:25

WarrenTofficier · 25/07/2025 09:22

Sandie left the change room on previous occasions and waited until Dr U left. This was noted in the Dr's book of naughty women and used to make the case against Sandie. Mangers have confirmed this during the tribunal. Sandie reported her concerns to management, they didn't nothing.

On Christmas Eve Sandie needed to change her bloodied clothing I'm not sure how she could achieve this without removing them. The 6foot plus, male bodied 20 something claims he was cornered by the 5'3 50 year old woman but also places himself in his own testimony as being between Sandie and the door.

There was a pattern of behaviour where SP was making it obvious that she held DU in contempt. DU felt intimidated and harassed, so she took notes on those behaviours.

On the particular night in question, SP waited until DU had come out of the bathroom cubicle and other people had left to confront her- around midnight. Do you think she would have done that if she were genuinely intimidated?

If she were covered in menstrual blood, surely the first course of action would have been to enter the free and available private toilet cubicle and clean herself up down there. Not wait around covered in blood to confront a person she allegedly was scared of.

She planned to confront DU - she explicitly stated her intention to do so.

DialSquare · 25/07/2025 09:25

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:21

Yes I hear your hostility. I think it's wildly unreasonable and completely irrational, likewise your interpretation of the law.

Now that really is projection!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:26

Tandora · 25/07/2025 08:38

Except of course for all the recorded incidents where transwomen were indeed a threat to women

There are criminals of all characteristics and all walks of life. Some of these happen to be white, black, brown, have long hair, blue eyes, one arm, etc. The existence of some criminals who happen to be trans, says nothing about trans people as a group.

The existence of rapists who happen to be trans women tells us that trans women are men.

OP posts:
Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:27

Yes.

They suspended SP and look what happened as a consequence - they are currently being sued on multiple accounts.

The political, legal and policy context in the UK at the moment is exceptionally hostile to trans people.

They were obviously not going to discipline SP in that context. However, they did recommend a structured reflections sessions as her behaviour was not appropriate.

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:24

That is literally the only thing a trans woman is. There are no other criteria.

You do not have to have gender dysphoria to be trans, there is no definition of a gender identity or any test to determine what someone's gender identity is, there is absolutely no proof required. We are repeatedly told that people are who they say they are.

Which means you cannot define a trans woman as anything other than a male person who says they identify as a woman.

What other parameters could you possibly add to this definition to make it more accurate?

No this demonstrates nothing but prejudice and a total lack of understanding of what it is to be trans.

BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:31

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:27

Yes.

They suspended SP and look what happened as a consequence - they are currently being sued on multiple accounts.

The political, legal and policy context in the UK at the moment is exceptionally hostile to trans people.

They were obviously not going to discipline SP in that context. However, they did recommend a structured reflections sessions as her behaviour was not appropriate.

Edited

Do you want to try another edit so this makes sense?. Good that the penny has finally dropped that DU wasn’t suspended though, iI guess.

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:31

BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:31

Do you want to try another edit so this makes sense?. Good that the penny has finally dropped that DU wasn’t suspended though, iI guess.

She was suspended - at the time of the event. The disciplinary process came later, and concluded after she had already brought her legal suits for harrassment.

BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:35

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:31

She was suspended - at the time of the event. The disciplinary process came later, and concluded after she had already brought her legal suits for harrassment.

Edited

Dr Upton brought a legal suit for harassment?

WarrenTofficier · 25/07/2025 09:35

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:19

No that's not clear at all.

They suspended DU and look what has happened to them.

The political, legal and policy context in the UK at the moment is exceptionally hostile to trans people.

Oh dear dear for someone who claims to have been following this case very closely you have just outted yourself. Sandie was suspended the Dr wasn't. Oopsie.

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:36

BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:35

Dr Upton brought a legal suit for harassment?

No SP was suspended at the time of the event. The disciplinary process came later after SP brought her claims of harrassment

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:37

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:21

Yes I hear your hostility. I think it's wildly unreasonable and completely irrational, likewise your interpretation of the law.

Tandora, I don't care what someone who has absolutely fuck all legal knowledge thinks about my interpretation of the law.

I am a lawyer, you are not, and the overwhelming majority of lawyers and judges share my understanding of the Supreme Court judgment, not yours.

If I am wildly unreasonable and irrational, well, so is the law, so suck it up, buttercup.

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:37

WarrenTofficier · 25/07/2025 09:35

Oh dear dear for someone who claims to have been following this case very closely you have just outted yourself. Sandie was suspended the Dr wasn't. Oopsie.

Thanks. I’d started to think I was reading posts in a parallel universe

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:37

WarrenTofficier · 25/07/2025 09:35

Oh dear dear for someone who claims to have been following this case very closely you have just outted yourself. Sandie was suspended the Dr wasn't. Oopsie.

That was a typo obviously which I had already corrected.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/07/2025 09:38

Tandora · 25/07/2025 08:32

To the contrary I've spend hours and hours on this site carefully and thoughtfully trying to explain it in the most accessible way that I can.

However, most posters (who are engaged on this topic on mumsnet) are so entrenched in their prejudices and fantasies about trans people that they just simply are not willing to listen or to consider.

Instead, they retort with the most vicious and personal insults in attempt to portray me as the devil. And yet for some reason they want to continue to talk to me - I'm not sure exactly why that is?

Edited

To the contrary I've spend hours and hours on this site carefully and thoughtfully trying to explain it in the most accessible way that I can.

And yet in all those posts, never once explained why a male bodied person (person of male karyotype if you prefer)'s inner sense of his own womanhood should be more significant to the women he interacts with than their own experience that he is of male body. Why his belief that his eyes are a woman's is more real than a woman's experience she is being watched by a man. Why his belief that his hands are a woman's is more real than a woman's experience she is being touched by a man. Why his belief that his experience is a woman's is more real than a woman's experience that her own experiences are being belittled and reframed for her by a man.

And never once explained how your claim that trans women are not a threat to women sits with the fact that transwomen have raped and indeed murdered women. You've claimed it's incorrect to infer from the fact that a higher proportion of trans women prisoners were imprisoned for sexual offences than that of other male (karyotype) prisoners let alone female ones that trans women in the overall population are also more likely than females to commit sexual offences but not supported that assertion with any explanation.

And never once explained why female people should accept being regulated from a meaningful social group with our own name, a history that is clearly and inarguably rooted in the reality of our bodies and what that means within patriarchy, and specific rights because of that, to a subgroup of a larger group called "women" based on no definable common factors that also includes self selected people of male karyotype, even though those people share none of that with us, but simply have a belief (or certain knowledge if you prefer) in their commonality with us that you cannot even explain nor measure.

You demand we accept that these people who share none of thoe embodied experiences and challenges are somehow just like us in ways we ourselves do not even recognise as us, but you feel nevertheless these people of male karyotype have more authority to speak for us about what it is to be us than we do for ourselves.

The best I can guess is that you somehow feel anything of the body is crass and gauche while anything of the mind is pure and real, so when the two disagree, it is the higher path to defer to the mind.

A laudable thought and a world I am happy to join you to work towards, but an utterly fallacy in this world where our bodies do have consequences regardless of out feelings on the matter. And until you recognise that, all you are doing in reality is perpetuating Patriarchy's disempowerment and marginalisation of the female (karyotype) body and through that of the people who have it.

However, most posters (who are engaged on this topic on mumsnet) are so entrenched in their prejudices and fantasies about trans people that they just simply are not willing to listen or to consider.

An easy way out for you but a lie. On the contrary, I have no prejudices or fantasies about trans people, I simply do not believe that their inner life no matter how genuinely felt overrides the consequences of physical sex, and that since under Patriarchy it is female bodied people who suffer the most detriment due to our body sex, to pretend otherwise hurts us specifically.

I, and many other, have listened to you over tens, maybe even hundreds of posts. I have asked you these questions again and again and again and again you have ignored, deflected or misrepresented.

So if you really want us to "listen or to consider" simply denying our own knowledge and our own experiences altogether tell us we are wrong for reasons you will not explain is not the way to do it.

Because while you go on ignoring questions from people when they do engage, even though those questions get to the heart of the reasons the people you say you want to convince are not convinced, and answering them well would be the absolute best way to achieve what you claim you want to achieve, well forgive me if I have my doubts.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/07/2025 09:39

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:25

There was a pattern of behaviour where SP was making it obvious that she held DU in contempt. DU felt intimidated and harassed, so she took notes on those behaviours.

On the particular night in question, SP waited until DU had come out of the bathroom cubicle and other people had left to confront her- around midnight. Do you think she would have done that if she were genuinely intimidated?

If she were covered in menstrual blood, surely the first course of action would have been to enter the free and available private toilet cubicle and clean herself up down there. Not wait around covered in blood to confront a person she allegedly was scared of.

She planned to confront DU - she explicitly stated her intention to do so.

Edited

Every decent person in society should hold men who force themselves into female only spaces despite the obvious and repeatedly expressed distress and discomfort of the female users of that space in contempt.

The sooner we all start holding such behaviour in contempt, the sooner it will end.

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:39

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:36

No SP was suspended at the time of the event. The disciplinary process came later after SP brought her claims of harrassment

So when you type DU you mean SP?

BackToLurk · 25/07/2025 09:40

Tandora · 25/07/2025 09:37

That was a typo obviously which I had already corrected.

In multiple posts?

Including

No that's not clear at all.
They suspended DU and look what has happened to them.
The political, legal and policy context in the UK at the moment is exceptionally hostile to trans people.

If you mean SP here, what are you describing by ‘look what has happened to them’

Igneococcus · 25/07/2025 09:41

"They suspended DU and look what has happened to them."

"They suspended SP and look what happened as a consequence"

Can you please make up your mind who was suspended.

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