"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Says the person who’s already stated clearly that no one should mention DU’s maleness. No shit.

TRA is an international movement. It wants men to be able to hide their sex.

The problem it will always face in the UK is our safeguarding laws. Our safeguarding laws require to know the sex and age of everyone working and in contact with vulnerable people and people when they are vulnerable.

TRA are never going to overcome the hurdle. Arguing that sex is too complicated to define is like arguing age is too.

My response is we don't need to gatekeep who is trans. If someone claims to be trans we take them seriously as the overwhelming likelihood is they are claiming to be trans because they are.

If we are comparing reports in progressive states where to complain is to put your head above the parapet and be called a bigot and states where there are strict rules enforced and so no need to complain is this really equivalent data to compare. We know from @Tandora on this thread and Dr Upton and others that complaining or querying may have little effect and invite problems. Self exclusion is more likely. Has different rates of self exclusion been studied @suggestionsplease1 ?

But you're totally ignoring the actual point.

If we don't need to gate keep people who say they are 'transgender' why not apply that to people who say they are transage or trans ability or transracial?

Like people who claim to be a different age or race? Or anorexic people who think they are fat?

Don’t think you explained how that isn’t the same as identifying as the opposite sex. You said it was an identity then it wasn’t an identity so it’s understandable that you might be confused.

Where do desistors and detransitioners figure in that? How about non-binary people?

I don't need how many times or in how many ways I can tell you that these are not equivalent.

How many cases of these have you actually heard of? people who say they are transage or trans ability or transracial?

Are we having a tonne of lawsuits about these things? Does our public health service have clinics for such groups?

No. Ask yourself why that is, its fairly obvious.

DU was experiencing a pattern of intimidation/bullying from SP who was making it very clear that she held DU in contempt for being a trans woman. She was taking notes on that behaviour.

No, DU was not experiencing intimidation/bullying from SP. How is it bullying or intimidating to either wait outside a changing room or leave it? You and Dr Upton are ideed advocating for the alternative which is that Sandie Peggie should remain in the changing room and change whilst he was in there. You are advocating that women cannot have boundaries and that their consent as to who they remove their clothes in front of is removed.

What DU was aggrieved about was that Sandie was not fawning and submissive and validating him, otherwise why care that Sandie did not change her clothes whilst he was in the changing room?

I will agree that if she knew a patient had requested female care and that they held gender critical beliefs, she should not attempt to treat that patient.

No, if a female patient requests female care than Dr Upton should not attempt to treat them full stop.

DU was not experiencing intimidation/bullying from SP

disagree.

You and Dr Upton are ideed advocating for the alternative which is that Sandie Peggie should remain in the changing room and change whilst he was in there. You are advocating that women cannot have boundaries and that their consent as to who they remove their clothes in front of is removed

Nope. This is still completely false and entirely your projection.

Perhaps people would prefer the data from the United Nations Gender Inequality Index, another internationally respected report on Women's equality.

O look, it's 10 for 10 there!

@suggestionsplease1 loving all the data you are sharing on this thread 💗

Why aren't they equivalent?

I've heard of examples of all of them.

As for numbers, the amount of 'transgender' people that I'd heard of 20 years ago was minimal. But you don't think it wasn't valid identity then, do you?

How many people do I need to have heard of in each category? Is there a number? Who decides that number? What if they're all out there, but in the closet because of stigma, as the TRAs claim is the case with gender?

There is lots of TRA documentation saying that trans identifying men have to right to request female HCP, and police officers when being searched.
How would that be possible if sex is as complicated as you suggest? If sex is the 'understanding' of the individual? What you and TRA want to to be able to identify everyone elses sex, but for other people to ignore the sex of the trans person.

Bingo. Trans must be able to identify everyone else as suits them but the reverse is absolutely not allowed. Welcome to the totalitarian TRA world.

See, all the time here people say they only deal in the facts, but they certainly don't like the international data facts that show women's wellbeing and trans people's wellbeing go hand in hand together.

The countries doing the best for women are also those doing the best for trans people and protecting their rights.

It seems very anti feminist to try to ridicule all these hugely respected international indices.

You talk about 'trans' as if it some stable, objective reality; a thing which can be observed and measured. But the reality is that people adopt trans identities for all sorts of reasons and have different motivations for doing so. Furthermore, many people detransition or desist, which goes to show that 'being trans' is not like 'being female' or 'being same sex attracted'......it is fluid, imaginal, conceptual and means different things to different people.

Why aren't they equivalent?

It makes me feel like I am going insane, when you act like this hasn't been directly asked and directly answered multiple times already on this thread.

I've heard of examples of all of them
Yes one or two examples. Please say/do all kinds of nutty things - you can find one or two examples of people doing anything.

Are we have multiple high profile law suits on these issues?

No.

Do we have sections of our public health service - that are completely overwhelmed - dealing with such categories of people.

No.

There's a very obvious reason for that.

Nope. This is still completely false and entirely your projection.

Nope. The only alternatives to Sandie Peggie waiting outside or removing herself from the changing room is to go in there and change whilst Dr Upton was in there or to remain in there and change whilst Dr Upton was in there.

It makes me feel like I am going insane, when you act like this hasn't been directly asked and directly answered multiple times already on this thread.

No you haven't, beyond 'I say so'

And you haven't answered my question. How many do I have to have heard of for these to be 'identities'?

Ive heard of at least as many of each as I'd heard of 'transgender' people in 2005.

So what does that tell me. Transgender identities weren't valid then either? Or that there's a cut off point at a particular year? When is that?

I'm not why you think the lawsuit point is relevant. For people to exist they have to be involved in lawsuits? Is that it?

Data showing that countries who allow males to move to the "women" category have a smaller gender gap isn't the win you think it is...

You still can’t articulate why it’s different, only that there aren’t lawsuits? Mental.

There are clinics set up to treat anorexic people, would you affirm them as fat then? They believe they are fat when they are not. Trans women believe they are women when they are not.

Unsure why @Tandora is avoiding any consideration of desistors, detransitioners or non-binary people. Absolute mystery.

But the reality is that people adopt trans identities for all sorts of reasons and have different motivations for doing so

Not really no. This is your belief about what people do based on the current culture of moral panic. It is overwhelmingly the case that trans people claim they are trans because they are trans.

Furthermore, many people detransition or desist, which goes to show that 'being trans' is not like 'being female' or 'being same sex attracted'.

No, detransition is rare. Where it occurs its usually due to prejudice - i.e. trans people experiencing so much rejection and discrimination that they are too exhausted to continue, especially where trans people have been denied health services that support them to pass. The concept of 'detransition' has been widely exploited by anti-trans groups to spread the idea that being trans isn't a real thing.

.it is fluid, imaginal, conceptual and means different things to different people

No being trans is not 'imaginal' or 'conceptual'. Being trans is a real axis of minority diversity, with a very clear definition, likely to have a durable biological underpinning.

Now that I think of it, I'd heard of a transabled before I ever heard of a transgender person and yes, the transabled are known to the health service.

Some have even persuaded doctors to cut off their healthy limbs. I'm not sure about the uk, but elsewhere

If you're implying what I think you're implying, you should be aware that transwomen score poorly across all measures examined in those studies, so if transwomen are recorded as women in data points they will bring the average score for women down. This, of course, makes it even more impressive those countries stay at the tops of international tables for womens wellbeing, safety and equality.