"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

And if that's all they wanted, crack on. Why should anyone else be forced to partake in their fantasy?

SP was the exception in DU's experience, not the rule.

Being trans is not a fantasy.

Being trans isn’t a fantasy

assuming that it means you are like the opposite sex or should be treated as the opposite sex is fantasy

But what I don't understand is how we determine which of those who claim different "authentic selves" we should take seriously.

What is the relevant difference between (a man who claims) "I'm a woman, me" and "I'm Elvis, me" or "I'm cool, me"?

How do we tell which is authentic?

I think at this point you are doing more damage to the cause of trans people than helping it, but I'm sure that is yet another thing we'll have to disagree on.

It may already have been linked to in this thread already, but of course there is evidence in this area that allowing trans people to use facilities in line with their gender identity does not increase criminal incidence.

This was a very well constructed matched localities study in Massachusetts comparing reports of crime in locations with non-discrimination laws against those without:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-in-restrooms-and-facilites/

"Study of Localities in Massachusetts

This study utilized data from criminal incident reports on safety and privacy violations related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms.9 Massachusetts localities with nondiscrimination laws that protect transgender people’s access to these facilities based on their gender identity were matched with localities without these protections. The matched pairs were compared over a period of time before and after the passage of the nondiscrimination laws.10 We found that:

Incidents of safety and privacy violations in these spaces were rare.
There was no significant change in privacy and safety violations across matched localities during the time period surrounding the enactment of nondiscrimination laws.
There was no evidence that privacy and safety in restrooms changed as a result of transgender people having, by law, access to restrooms and other facilities in accordance with their gender identity."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

I'm just going to chip in to say that watching the dying throes of this nonsense is very enjoyable, and those who will never give up will no doubt provide entertainment for years to come.

We can relax and laugh at it now that we know people are seeing it for what it is, so it's lost its power.

It just took some time for everyone to notice, they are saying this, and yes they mean it.

I'll bet the number of lurkers on this Let Them Speak thread to be among the highest in MN's history, due to the high public awareness now. It'll be far more effective than any similar thread years back.

And Tandora has stepped up to help hammer home the last few nails in the public opinion of genderism.

A service much appreciated.

Yes but you know fuck all about the law so your disagreement is irrelevant.

Beth Upton specifically noted every instance where Sandy Peggie either left the women's changing room when he entered or refused to enter it until after he had left and reported her to HR.

I don't give a fuck what it means to be trans. I'm sick of hearing about it. The world does not and should not ever revolve around trans people. The sooner they accept that, the better.

Incidents were rare

in other words there wasn’t enough data collected to make any sensible observations?

So any person who believes that ultimately DU is male. That their biological sex is male. Is in your world part of a ‘small cohort’ who hold gender critical beliefs? A cohort that is required to declare their beliefs before receiving treatment? Anyone who does not believe that a trans person is ‘literally’ the sex they are is gender critical and should declare that otherwise they cannot expect to receive single-sex care. Any trans person who acknowledges their biological sex - the pregnant trans man perhaps or just a transwoman who says “I know I’m male” - all part of this apparently small cohort?

I think you are mistaken if you, or DU, think that most people believe that transpeople are literally the sex they say they are. Particularly as you and they continue to create an environment where you say on the one hand “how would anyone know someone was GC unless they said so” and on the other “people should not express their GC views”

Hardly...it's not exactly the way the rest of the world is going is it? The best countries in the world for women usually have policies of gender self ID.

As per graphs below:

All the YouGov polling indicates that a majority of people hold gender critical beliefs, even if that's not what they call it. So yes, it is an entirely reasonable assumption that a woman who has requested a female doctor will not feel a trans woman meets those criteria.

And here

Ah yes, New Zealand. Such a great country in which to be a woman.

I must say I appreciate your engagement with this Tandora- it's really really useful for people who haven't thought/looked into the subject a great deal but perhaps just take the "be kind" angle to actually read some detail of the argument of both sides. Certainly a few people I know have had their eyes opened to the fact it's a house of cards built on foundations of sand from reading threads like this (rare though they are- and again I thank you for not flouncing). Today in particular has some great entries. Still not made me laugh out loud like the "wiping the floor" one from someone yesterday or whenever it was, but very very useful for the relatively objective bystander to read.

Ireland is actually a very deeply ingrained misogynistic society.

There are so many things these studies don't measure.

It doesn't matter what it "means" to those who claim trans identities. There is an objective, commonly understood reality, and this is the one we all inhabit. People are free to go about their own business as they see fit and within the law etc..but what they cannot expect is for others to have to share in or reinforce their private belief ( and which is in their head only).

We live in a society and it really is not all about us as individuals. This whole thing about being our " best and most authentic selves" is pure, self centred navel gazing. We have to acommodate ourselves to reality and to the cultures in which we live to a very large extent.

O yeah, what are the exactly? Have you read the methodologies of the internationally respected Women, Peace and Security Index, or the Global Gender Gap Report?

These are cited by governments, national health bodies and women's rights groups worldwide. It's a shame you don't like what they have to say, isn't it? Doesn't seem very feminist of you.

Perhaps you could post alternative international studies of women's wellbeing and equality, and we could look at how those countries perform in terms of gender self-ID?

The right to single sex care is covered in the Equality Act.

The protected characteristic of GR does not change a persons sex, or allow them to assume they have the protections of the opposite sex. GRA allows a person to have identification in the opposite sex, but does not change a persons sex.

Nowhere in law does it state that sex is the 'understanding' of the individual concerned.

There is lots of TRA documentation saying that trans identifying men have to right to request female HCP, and police officers when being searched.

How would that be possible if sex is as complicated as you suggest? If sex is the 'understanding' of the individual? What you and TRA want to to be able to identify everyone elses sex, but for other people to ignore the sex of the trans person.

Thats not equality, or a system that can hope to maintain safeguarding. Its never going to work.

I suppose a better question is why on earth would someone pretend to be trans when they aren't?

Maybe one or two individuals for whatever bizarre reason, but what on earth is the basis for thinking this would be a widespread problem?

No, it is exactly what you are advocating for no matter how you try to hide it in word salad and obfuscation

No it absolutely and categorically is not what anyone is advocating for. This is entirely your own projection.

Why was Dr Upton aggrieved that Sandie would not enter the changing room whilst he was in there?

DU was experiencing a pattern of intimidation/bullying from SP who was making it very clear that she held DU in contempt for being a trans woman. She was taking notes on that behaviour.

That's not actually addressing the question asked, though is it.

What's your response to that?