"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

And again, I could have a genuine and deep seated belief that I am 5'1" despite in reality being 5'10".

5'1" may be deeply real to me, but other people will still experience me as 5'10". A 5'1" girlfriend will still have to stand on tiptoes to kiss me. I will still be crunched into a Ryanair seat.

Our embodied selves exist outside our own self image. In the material world we share with others our physical existence is at least as relevant to others as our inner self image, and if the two differ it is our embodied self that others will always experience no matter how hard they may genuinely try to share our own view of ourselves.

So even if we do not accept the truth of our embodied existence, even if we have every reason to believe our internal image is the true one, nevertheless our external existence in the world affects others and we cannot expect them to override that reality to favour our internal and subjective one even if we know in every fibre of our body that it is that and not the objective expereince outside ourselves that is the real truth of us.

Do you understand? I am not saying trans people's experience is not far more real and meaningful than "identifying as a goalpost(1)", I'm just saying materially, that still doesn't make them not the sex everyone else experiences them to be.

(1) and I'm not saying it is, either. I'm saying it doesn't change the objective reality of their physical existence in the shared world as the physical sex they are. A trans woman may perceive himself to be a woman but the reality is that he is the consciousness of a male body. He is part of that body. Even if as you believe his sense of sex really is female due to genuine biochemical reasons that control inner perception of self, this is due to a misfire within a male body. The reality is that his consciousness has never existed outside that body and has never expereinced anything but the experiences that a male body can have.

Why would you choose to do that though? When all it would do is cause that person profound humiliation and pain. Why do you feel the need / entitlement to comment on their body/ person?

Why would you choose to do that though? When all it would do is cause that person profound humiliation and pain. Why do you feel the need / entitlement to comment on their body/ person?

BECAUSE THEY'RE A MALE PERSON IN A FEMALE-ONLY SPACE.

If a male can't bear being told they're male, they can avoid that by not attempting to enter spaces where males are not permitted.

Why is not accomodating a trans women's belief that something in his mind makes him the same as me denying his dignity and humanity, but forcing me to aquiese to sharing female-only spaces and language with him even though I do not believe something in his mind makes him the same as me not denying mine?

Why is denying his idea of womanhood unthinkable, but denying mine essential?

We were talking about a different scenario actually. Please read the thread.

I agree I slightly misread, but isn't really a different scenario is it? A male attempting to provide care to a woman requesting female care is also a female-only space being trespassed.

Same response is justified for the same reason, and he can avoid it the same way.

Are you suggesting trans women should not be doctors? Or they should never treat female patients? I don’t get it.

Whether or not being a therian or otherkin is an identity, or a psychological condition, the people who self define as such are real.

Your attitude towards them seems to be rather dismissive.

Because he's actually a man, therefore he matters, whereas you are actually a woman, and do not.

This has nothing to do with trans people or being trans.

Why would I say to a male person, who presumably knows they are male, that I requested female-only care? Is that a real question?

They shouldn't treat a female patient who has requested a female doctor.

Are you suggesting trans women should not be doctors? Or they should never treat female patients? I don’t get it.

A trans doctor who is male should not put themselves forward to treat a woman who has asked for female care, nor should they do anything other than concede immediately if a female patient requests it upon seeing them.

Same as we'd expect from any other male doctor.

Enough with the performative cluelessness. Of course they can treat female patients, unless the patient has requested, and been assured, female-only care. Even you must be able to see that that wouldn't be appropriate

Yes why would you feel the need to say to a trans woman “you are male” , when all it would do is cause them profound humiliation and pain? Why do you feel the need and entitlement to comment on their body / person? Why can’t you simply say you’d be more comfortable with another doctor?

You are just using a lot of words to say not much at all. You can’t explain what trans is,
never mind how a man can say he’s a woman, based on… what?

Why do trans women (men) say they’re women? Why do men say they identify as women? What makes them a woman? Why do they wear make up, heels, bras to mimic breasts, dresses, skirts.. All the regressive stereotypes replied upon to show ‘they are women’. I have had a man say to me ‘I identify as a woman’, are you undermining him?

Again, can you provide your workings on how one can be a different sex but not age or race? ‘It’s complicated, it’s a thing, it’s different, it’s like being gay’ (it’s not btw), isn’t going to fly.

You don't think women should be allowed to articulate and assert their boundaries in case it risks upsetting people. Interesting position to take on a feminist board.

So you concede that trans women are not female? Or are different to females?

What is a trans woman doing when he claims his mind makes him the same sex as me in the physical world other than commenting on my body/ person?

Why is it legitimate to cause me profound humiliation and pain by reducing my full and meaningful existence as a physically female human person, with everything the body means in the physical, social and cultural spaces for good and for bad, to something equivalent to a feeling in the mind of someone physically male?

Because I promise you this, the reason you have post after post of people disagreeing with the things you are claiming about what matters and does not (or should not) matter to female bodied people is not because it's a bloodless intellectual exercise for us but because your statements are here and now on this thread and so many before, are defending a cause that brings profound humiliation and pain to real women.

Your refusal to sccept that we see ourselves and experience our lives in ways that do not fit your narrative is hurtful. That we know you will not see us as anything more than the background for the needs of trans women is belittling and humiliating.

You are so focused on your crusade to protect trans people you cannot see you are right now doing to women here the very thing you are fighting so hard to prevent happening to trans people.

Why does articulating and asserting your boundaries involve the need/ entitlement to pass unecessary , unasked for , and profoundly hurtful/ humiliating judgement and comment about another person’s body and identity?

It quite clearly doesn’t.

I thought it wasn’t about an identity?

So you’re against material truth and reality. Ok.

Would you agree with an anorexic person they are fat, and go along with what they ‘think’ they are? To avoid hurting their feelings? I’m sure they don’t want to hear it either.

Since when has it been kind to go along with a lie?

It's not a judgment. It's an observation. This person is male. Are you suggesting they don't know they're male? And the need has arisen because a male person has asked other people to pretend that they aren't male.

When a transwoman places themselves within a space or situation that they know others believe or have been told is female-only then it is a deliberate act. Your position seems to be they bear no responsibility for that act, and any objection, any refusal to go along with the pretence is offensive.

Why are you framing female safety and privacy as an entitlement?

Umm… because the patient asked for a female health care professional. Are you saying the patient should accept someone of the opposite sex even though that would cause distress. What about respect and basic humanity? Or is that just reserved for transpeople?

I know but I’d get reported for saying it 😉😉😉😉😉