"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

Again, the marriage of two people does not affect the marriages of everyone else.

If you want to leverage the very positive acceptance of gay marriage as a comparison, the appropriate analogy would be if in order to allow gay marriage, a new definition of marriage was based on the belief that all marriages going foward are considered same sex.

For all public purposes, state and social, any M/F couples would have to decide whether to describe themselves as M/M or F/F, and furthermore, not only is the label on their marraige changed, but because of that going forward the individuals concerned will be treated as actually gay for all public and social purposes.

There will be no space or language, legal or otherwise, for the public acceptance of straight marriage, and anyone complaining that while gay marriage is absolutely a fine and positive thing that adds to society in so many ways, it is not the universal experience of marriage, and other people's marriages are equally valid, will be told that while they can of course think about their own marriage in private however they want, recognising the truth of straight marriages publically is unthinkable because will erase the reality of gay people and the existence of gay marriages.

That is, of course, ridiculous. It is a million miles away from the real story of gapy marriage, so far away as to be laughable. Noone ever even considered it for one hot second.

And yet this is exactly what you are doing to women (and men) when you insist that including (karyotypically) male people in the social definition of women, or (karyotypically) female people in the social definition of men, is not a redefinition of what it is to be a woman or a man because we can still think about ourselves however we want in the privacy of our own heads, we just can't expect society to acknowledge and respect it any more.

Tandora was claiming to have some extra knowledge of sex development and why those pathways sometimes led to people believeing they were the opposite sex. So I came to the threads looking for the evidence on which those beliefs were based. All I've found is a reference to one study of 27 twins with no link to the study. I initially took it to be https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-17749-0 but actually it seems Tandora may have meant https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-06265-6?fromPaywallRec=false which actually states it did "not support a role for prenatal sex hormones in the occurrence of gender diversity."

So where is the evidence to back Tandora's views and why does Tandora not want to link to it?

Nope. I’m still waiting for @Tandora to explain what a woman is as they claim transwomen are women, but that being a woman is nothing to do with biology. And also sex is verrrrry complicated so no one actually knows if they’re a man or a woman apart from males with a trans identity who have secret knowledge which lets them know they’re really really women.

No.

You ‘respectfully’ disagreed when challenged about not providing evidence.

So you provided evidence, you say.

Where is the evidence you provided, please?

So, identifying as a different sex is a ‘real thing’ but identifying as a different age isn’t? How does one arrive at that?

Why is one possible and the other isn’t?

The million dollar question.

Don't bank on getting an answer

In other news, i now identify as a member of a Royal Family. Please refer to me as Your Majesty if you ever see me in the supermarket. Failure to do this will hurt my feelings, trample my basic human rights, leave me without a shred of dignity, erase my existence, and is an act of violence which will leave me to feel fundamentally unsafe. And it will all be your fault.

Hi there,

I often post links to studies but people tend to not be very literate at reading them as demonstrated here.

This study provides strong evidence of a genetic basis for transness .

(As I have already clarified once already) the study is not just based on 27 twin pairs, you have to read beyond sentence 2:
”To increase the power of our analysis, we pooled our observations with previously published twin data that used comparable methods to ours. The pooled sample of 463 twin pairs comprised 47/222 (21.2%) MZ and 21/241 (8.7%) DZ concordant pairs.”

Regarding the prenatal hormones finding- , this is specifically in relation to prenatal hormone transfer between twins in utero. Previous twin studies have found evidence of this and a link to transness, but this study did not. This is not what I was speaking of in the previous thread about the operation of sex hormone signalling genes within the body.

A genetic basis for being trans in no way makes a person objectively the opposite sex.

If you throw dried petals at me and call them a garnish I’m afraid I won’t be able to take you seriously.

The entire argument boils down to TWAW, which of course is bonkers. If you can believe that you can believe anything, as demonstrated here.

There is no dignity, to anyone, in lying; and it's impossible to respect someone who asks you to.

To make things more concrete, here's what Tandora is advocating:

https://reduxx.info/brazilian-university-workers-facing-up-to-five-years-in-prison-for-social-racism-after-misgendering-transgender-student/

A female janitor and a University administrator in Brazil are facing up to 5 years in prison for “social racism” after a trans-identified male student reported them to police for “transphobia.” The student, Odara Moraes, had taken offense to being asked to use the men’s restroom.

The incident occurred on October 14 of 2022 at the Federal University of Paraíba, one of the two main public Universities in the coastal eastern state of Paraíba, Brazil. That day, Moraes entered one of the women’s washrooms on campus only to be confronted by a female janitor who challenged his presence in the women’s facilities.

But remember, this doesn't diminish women's rights at all.

So it’s the second option. We must pretend. If a transwoman entrers a female-only space we must pretend we believe they aren’t male. Presumably if I go to a female-only health clinic for an intimate procedure and the clinician is a transwoman I should also pretend that I believe they are a woman. Failing to pretend in either of these situations would in your eyes be disrespectful. Although, again, no requirement for the transwoman to consider whether their behaviour is respectful or not.

You don’t have to pretend. You have to treat them with respect . For example,

That means, not confronting them with your opinions about their body and identity in public , or at work, addressing them as they have asked to be addressed, etc. these are basic principles of respect.

Regarding the doctor -, you are of course absolutely free to decline your consent to an intimate procedure for any reason.

Being a woman is nothing to do with biology and is difficult to define, unless we’re talking about transwomen when it is to do with biology and it is absolutely clear that they are women. Keep up.

Yeah. It’s almost like there is no argument that will show males with a trans identity are women in any possible way. They’re men. Always were, always will be

How does one arrive at that?

Through Understanding what being trans is, and reading a vast amount of scientific research about transness. Being trans is a real axis of human diversity- as real as being gay or autistic. the study we just discussing for example, provides evidence of a genetic cause.

Being trans is not actually about “identity” at all- that’s just a word that has been unhelpful used to explain it and widely misunderstood..

None of this has anything do with oh well I can just identify as 10, or black or a dog, or a goalpost. These things have no equivalence.

And in a women’s only space such as a changing room, or a women’s refuge, or a prison cell, or in a boxing ring, or on a race track, or in a college women’s dormitory, or at work when that trans women attempts to engage in conversation about let’s say menstruation - how exactly does that respect you feel should be shown, look like?

If you have a problem with how the space is run you speak to the organisers. You definitely don’t confront people for not looking right. That’s not going to lead anywhere good.

Do you understand that a trans woman who insists their gender identity means they can share woman-only spaces and woman-only language and occupy woman-only roles is himself confronting the female people they are unilaterally defining themselves as being one of with the TW's opinions about their bodies and identity in public, or at work?

Why is respect such a one way street for you?

If you have a problem with how the space is run you speak to the organisers.

The organisers have already agreed that it's female-only and men claiming to women shouldn't be there.

So they'll just escort them out officially, and you're satisfied?

I would agree that a lone woman confronting a man directly is risky.

By ‘in public’ do you mean in a public space or in front of other people?

Regarding a clinician, would a patient be able to say ‘I’m sorry I asked for female care, and you are male’?

Where is your proof that the earth is flat?

You mean like NHS Fife or the RCN?

I see that thread has gone through the "respect" phase.

From someone that supports a group that threatens rape and bodily harm.
From a group that supports signs about murder of women.
From a group that throws piss at buildings, soup over women that dare to have a voice.
Has chased people out of jobs and had them cancelled.
And from a group that has not only harassed and doxed women but has screamed in the face of babies and punched out old women.

Yet we must respect them.