"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

you call it an “observation “ , I call it a judgement.

Regardless- Articulating and asserting your personal boundaries in no way requires you to verbalise your personal “observations” about other people’s bodies and person.

Trans women have every right to work as doctors. If you encounter a doctor who you believe is trans and you don’t want them to treat you, you are perfectly able to decline your consent and ask for a different doctor without commenting on their body/ sex/ person .

Are you saying transwomen aren't male?

And no one has said they can't work as Drs, but you keep trying to perpetuate the lie that they have. It's very transparent.

the lie that the objection is to them being trans rather than the true objection, they are male, hasn't gone unnoticed either.

And no one has said they can't work as Drs

great so then you agree they haven’t unreasonably put themselves in any kind of situation where they deserve to be subject to your personal “observations” about their body / person

No. Patients have a right to same sex care. Patients come first, before the feelings of the medical staff. Or are you saying a woman’s right to same sex care is less important than the feelings of a trans identified male? Why? Why do the feelings of the male get put before the feelings of the woman?

Where someone has requested and been assured female-only care. You're really not doing yourself any favours by misrepresenting other people's position.

Are trans women male?

well now you’re just embellishing the hypothetical scenario with extra details you’ve decided to insert . Glad you’ve at least acknowledged this wouldn’t be acceptable without previous agreement/ statement of preference about care.

with your additional inserted context, we would have to establish that previous agreement had been mutually understood.

Frankly @Tandora , he started it.

A male bodied person rocking up to a female-only space or role with the belief that something in his mind, no matter how deeply felt, no matter how biologically caused, makes the differences between our bodies and the reality of my embodied experiences and my own sense of self and sex irrelevant, and that on his own cognisance alone he has the right to decide my understanding of my own self is someting he can ignore, is already behaving with such breathtaking entitlement and arrogance, and dismissing the reality of what it is to be female bodied in this world in such a profoundly humiliating way, that a polite "I'm sorry, I don't share your beliefs about gender so Iwould like to be seen by doctor who is female in the original every day sense" is politeness way beyond what he deserves.

If anyone has any doubt about the abject misogyny behind this movement, they only need to compare how it treats a man's assertion that is is interchangeable with female people with fawning respect despite his never in reality having a single experience of what it is to be a physically female person, while dismissing a woman's assertion that he is not despite her having been one every single day of her life.

So are you saying people are NOT entitled to same sex care? Really? Why are you so invested in trampling over the rights of others to enable transpeople to have whatever they want? What about the needs, wants and rights of others?

So are you saying people are NOT entitled to same sex care

not sure how you read that into what I said.

There is nothing like witnessing Tandora lay out her position to make you understand the full force of the misogyny of the TRA movement.

Presumably if I go to a female-only health clinic for an intimate procedure and the clinician is a transwoman I should also pretend that I believe they are a woman.

Regarding a clinician, would a patient be able to say ‘I’m sorry I asked for female care, and you are male’?

The context was always there. If a woman is attending a clinic promoted as female-only, then they have been assured female-only care. If a transwoman then appeared to deliver the care, they have made a deliberate decision to present themselves as female. Your position is the patient must play along, and if they don't it is the patient that is being offensive. A transwoman could choose to say "no, it is not appropriate for me to deliver this care in this context as I am male". The clinician should not be placing the patient in the position of having to object.
Unless you are saying that the transwoman is not male, and it is therefore not a problem. You seem very reluctant to answer the very simple question. "Are trans women male?"

You were very adamant that pointing out a person was male when you had requested a female was heresy and that the patient should just put up with it to spare the poor man’s feelings. So either you believe people are not entitled to sane sex care or you think trans peoples wishes and feelings are paramount? Which is it?

Because that is what your position amounts to. You know that. Quit being disingenuous.

You're telling women they have no rights to question when a man presents themselves as 'female' to them.

In a democratic society we elect members of parliament who make and unmake our laws.

The Equality Act was debated and enacted by our democratically elected government. If you were a civilised person who believed in democracy you would respect the law as it is, not as you would like it to be.

But Tandora, you cannot even settle on what sex is - happy to go back to the original thread to find your quotes if you’d like me to. So I’m struggling to understand how you support entitlement to same sex care. Surely this would require peopld to have a definition of what biological sex actually is and clear definitions of what constitutes the two sex groups?

It’s also a spectacular display of double speak and obfuscation.

Please god let there not be another thread

Sex, trans - is what I say it is not what it actually is.

BackToLurk · Today 17:05

Regarding a clinician, would a patient be able to say ‘I’m sorry I asked for female care, and you are male’?

Tandora · Today 17:20

Why would you choose to do that though? When all it would do is cause that person profound humiliation and pain. Why do you feel the need / entitlement to comment on their body/ person?

@Tandora are you suggesting, other than Dr Upton who has on the stand already admitted he would do this, that some trans identified male doctors might knowingly sexually assault a female patient who had requested same sex intimate care?

Transwomen are male people who have adopted a post modernistic 'identity'. Their private identity mattters should have no role or impact on their profesional capacity or performance. What is private should stay that way and not take centre stage.Having said that many doctors are doing themselves no favours at all at present, as they prioritise activism and politicking over their duties to their patients and their profession.

i suggest that 'Being trans' means nothing other than the adoption of a cross sex identity which is rooted in the privacy of one's own imaginings about sex and 'gender' roles and presentations.

Because not everything in the world revolves around that person's feelings about themselves; and because other people also have rights and dignity; and because women have the right to request a same sex clinician for certain types of intimate procedure.

If you allow transwomen in women's toilets they are no longer single sex toilets.

Therefore, they might as well be open to all men.

Do you want to end single sex toilets for women?

Wow. I missed this.

So if a female patient asks for a female doctor, and Dr Upton arrives and the female patient points out that Dr Upton is not a female doctor, Tandora's take is that the female patient should just accept being treated by a male doctor rather than cause humiliation to the male doctor by saying that they are male.

Why am I not surprised?

This reminded me of something.
I was friends with a man. Just friends. We had a nice day out walking, came back to mine for a meal, and he started getting sentimental. I wasn't having any, and he said "we've had a lovely day, why are you spoiling it?"
I hadn't asked him to come on to me. He was the one who moved the goalposts and spoiled the day. Not me.