NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

From TT

JR - sc20 - 1659 - 3 creation dates here, top one says oct 26th 309am edited aug 23, first title alpha med, another £44.05 created 26th oct edited earlier. another created oct and edited earlier can you assist with explanation?
PD - inferred created earlier. Google says Oct but edited earlier, all of the notes edited before created, DU didn't lead us up the garden path, included to show similar notes unrelated but have predated time we can't explain
JR - looked at scs, 5 references to 26th Oct at 308, 309 or 310 in the morning can you explain
PD - no

Fifer : So we've got IT Security Guy #1 gettin ahead o the Guy #2's (inconvenient to The Board) answers. Bear in mind Guy #1 works directly for The Board. His rep depends on protecting The Board. Guy #2 is a freelancer and his rep depends on being shown to be correct, and will be quite happy to be showin up Guy #1 and very very unhappy wi getting a showin up hissel. Could cost the guy thoosands.
Guy #2 is sair unlikely tae be pittin up wi Guy #1 pissin on his fish supper lik this. Expect the IT equivalent ae a square go being offered in the second guy's testimony. The words "I think you'll find" and "with all due respect" will be used nae doobt.

JR - if we look at - 1644 -does that assist?
PD - are we talking about sc in row 2?
JR - page 1694 for JB criticism, last sentance, worth of note there's edited dates, each sc produced by DU lacks an edit date. explain
PD - bear with, the screenshots i thought he ref'd

I perhaps chose a bad illustration to make my point. I think there are some reasonable applications. If someone was potentially stalking me I would have to take notes of each instance, even if it seemed petty, such as someone giving me flowers, or a wave, because stalking amounts to these instances over time and becomes dangerous over time and which some would label microaggressions in this context, because if I didn't log it I would not be able to get any help.

Files can have creation dates and modification dates, both of which can be changed independently.

Good Morning, we started on time today.. and im actually free! Gotta admit dont know whether im gonna understand all this data/techy stuff 😬

in practical terms it’s a joint self-insurance scheme, which is not radically different than an external insurance company (which also collects “contributions”).

The structure will be different, no underwriters perhaps to consider risk premiums and no need for a profit, and probably no laying off risk at Lloyds or whatever, but the idea is the same.

This seems to suggest that takes the form of insurance. I've no idea but this is the thread that sparked the thinking. https://x.com/JNHanvey/status/1948383309936878054

This doesn't seem like a great witness for JR. IME, techie people are generally not easily led into drawing other people's conclusions from their own observations.

As an observer, JR's voice sounds like an animated primary school teacher as she speaks to star pupil in slow kind voice.

Hahaha She didn't get her star pupil to perform as she wanted and has reverted to brisk barrister for next question. Enunciating now as if speaking to difficult child in detention.

I don't understand it either, @Jitrenka. But I'm sticking with it in the hope there will be a nice easy summary forthcoming.

From TT

PD - bear with, the screenshots i thought he ref'd tthe html?
JR - 1666 is fig 4, 1667 is fig 5 -
PD - no can't explain why not on screen, downloaded from laptop, data from the mobile
JRrepeats page refs
PD - where talking about edit date, we haven't got it, can't explain
JR - can you explain? your sc shots start at 1643

Fifer So much fir 30 meenits. JR his spent mair than that underminin her ain witness (IT Fellae 2) that she called! PD hasn't been asked a single question aboot his actual area of competence and responsibility. Wid ye credit it? They must be pure keechin thersel aboot #2 guy and whit he's come up wi.

JR - we have edit dates for some, not others
PD - open note in application, have date bottom right, when downloading doesn't look like that, the html edit dates are editable there are 2 parts to that
JR - sc shot 5 JB says accessed in downloads, see that 1646 file pathway
JR - says downloads. C:/user for every subsequent one we see something different. JB aligned on that saying accessed from somewhere

J - Big Sond (clearly needs a meenit) slow down

JR - 5 says downloads, 6 and rest say something else. Suggest later ones accessed from somewhere other than downloads

JR is horrendous. Her manner is so patronising.

I wonder does JR actually understand all this HTML edit dates stuff, or is she inwardly cursing whoever had the idea of calling PD...

The dates on Upton’s notes are wacky.
Answers from witness not satisfying.
Too much control over download process by Upton.
Not even physically co-located for the meeting - was a video call.
Feels like next tech witness will demolish.

JR very snippy with her witness.

If I were being x/e by JR, even if we were on the SAME SIDE, I would not be responsible for my actions.

Meenit 🤣

Just what I was thinking.

Hahahahaha she just raised her voice to tell him to slow down. This is great.

She repeats

Which is?

Which is?

So good to watch. This guy is not going to compromise himself for anyone.

Don't know but I'll wager NC understands it perfectly.

PD - DU moved the files to
JR - slow PD - up to screen 5 into auto folder downloads
JR - from 6 what happened
PD - she wanted to put them somewhere easily accessible for her JR - where PD - her work area docs/med/workarea

JR says DrU, PD says she.. for now.

Naomi's junior questioning now. Think JR has had enough of this line

Exactly.

CE taking cross-exam. Confident start. NC typing away next to her.

In contrast, this is about Jim Borwick -

Owner - Jim Borwick Msc

Jim served in Her Majesty's Forces (ARMY) for 24 years; 12 years in the Royal Military Police where he was a Sergeant, responsible for directing criminal investigations within the Military Community throughout Scotland. As a result of service with the Royal Military Police Jim gained a wealth of investigational experience working within jurisdictions across the world. Throughout his career Jim was held a number of positions which included platoon commander, detachment commander and IT Systems Administrator responsible for managing the IT Network across Military Police locations in Scotland.

Upon retirement from HM Forces in 2004, Jim worked as a Computer and Mobile Telephone Forensic Analyst with Law Enforcement Scotland (Scottish Crime & Drugs Enforcement Agency). As part of this role he worked on all manner of criminal investigations including protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults, drugs, fraud, abuse of privilege, murder and other Criminal activity.

Jim holds a Masters Degree in the field of Forensic Computing from the Royal Military College of Science and has completed the Cisco CCNA. Jim has completed ENCASE and FTK training to an advanced level, is trained and experienced in live forensics - including RAM analysis of Windows/MAC based operating systems; analysis of Apple MAC Computers; completed Wireless Forensics training and Ethical Hacking training at a World Leading University.

Jim is a very experienced Mobile Telephone Forensic Analyst particular areas of expertise are the examination of Apple and Android devices including techniques to circumvent security of these devices and examination of the various Apps installed on these devices. Jim has completed Advanced Mobile Telephone Forensic training courses and is experienced in the use of the top Mobile Telephone Forensic Software.

Jim is a vetted member of the Expert Witness register. He regularly gives evidence in High Court (Scotland) for Criminal Cases and has produced Expert Witness Reports for Civil Investigations throughout the UK, which have included investigations into theft of IP, Brand Protection, Offences Contrary to Copyright Legislation and investigations relating to the comprising of Corporate Network through unauthorised access from and external source, among others.

Specific areas of expertise include:
• Wireless Network Forensics,
• Wireless Forensics Surveys,
• RAM Analysis - Windows OS and Apple Mac
• Live Forensics,
• IOS Forensics - IPhone IPad etc,
• Acquisition of Data from security protected HTC Handsets.
• Investigations regarding the Theft of Intellectual Property (IP),
• Internet Investigation and Open Source Intelligence gathering.
• Social Network Forensics - Facebook, Twitter, Whatsapp etc

I think NC, without being able to see the willy angle here, has deferred to CE.

I know how to edit HTML but only cos of kitboga.. thats what scammers do when they try to steal money off you.. they edit the bank balance you see on screen so you think that you have been overpaid but if you refresh whatever is edited disappears.