NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

so Upton was used to seeing men in dresses?

Maybe he also identifies as a cleric?

Actually, in my dim recollection, there was some dispute over whether Brewer had received the phonecall or when it had happened, and the bin story was produced by her to prove that knowing when she received the call was seared into her memory.

Well quite, but what does the actual policy say?
They are sticklers at NHS Fife you know

Exactly - which is why when she went partisan/NHS after refusing to be clear about proper procedure and not in hindsight admitting that the irregularities didn't look good, that she undermines her own credibility.

But I thought they didn’t have a policy for trans identifying staff…

Louise curran

I've got 'Louise Curran, Lauren Harris and others' according to my note of what NC said during her cross examination of LH.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/

Just checked. That one got to 19 threads (and then further associated threads to discuss the outcome and the appeal).

I'm still a bit behind, but re pronouns .. I think NC absolutely correct to stand her ground. This case is about so much more than Sandie Peggie. It's also about NC's right to correctly sex a person in court, it's not unkind it's the truth and it's fundamental to the whole case. And NC is well aware of this, it's fascinating to see witness after witness fall in step with NC when she uses the correct language. The only person trying to control what people say is JR.
How isn't this obvious to everyone?

Ah, I've just put it together. Louise Curran is one of the people named (LC) as objecting to the decision to allow Sandie back to work.

Forgive me, but I’ve got a vague memory of the hearing earlier this year resulting in a requirement for Dr U to produce his phone so the WhatsApp messages could be examined. Did I dream this?

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned, but may have missed, is that when Dr Upton is at work he’s wearing scrubs, which I think are essentially the same for women and men. So, Dr U isn’t particularly dressed as a woman.

Also, (my source for this is watching many episodes of Casualty, which may or may not be reliable), don’t staff with long hair tie it back? We often see medics with long hair arriving or leaving work with their hair down, but it’s up when they see patients. So, Dr U’s male-pattern baldness would be more obvious to colleagues than in the pictures we see of him outside court.

Raspberry scrubs as I remember.

More than my jobs worth Sandie mate, I would love to help but my hands are tied, policy innit?

V

Oh poor Dr Beth of course you can have a little private look at the evidence with your personal support witness to help you edit it, I don't think it says anything specifically against that in the policy but I'm not gonna check because obviously that wouldn't apply to the sacred cast you even if it did. Do let me know if I can help with anything else you poor poppet. Hot chocolate?

Was DU one of the 6? Or a 7th added? I remember evidence this week that he was included on the e-mail chain when "polishing" the statement

That one got to 19 threads (and then further associated threads to discuss the outcome and the appeal).

The difference here I think is that not many of us know any female barristers, or indeed any, but I bet that everyone posting here knows at least one nurse. So there is the feeling that "this could have been me or my mother, my sister, my friend, and I wouldn't have been happy about a bloke in the changing room."

I still can’t get over the fact that back in February NHS Fife was denying the first investigation ever happened. Jane Russell had an exchange with the judge where she insisted that Esther Davidson was NOT an investigator, only a postbox. Who made the decision to attempt to conceal that, and how on earth did they think they would get away with it?!

My recollection is that it was 7 once he was added into the chain.

So, Dr U isn’t particularly dressed as a woman.

This is of course, one of his problems - he can't wear the transwoman uniform of thick make up, heels and a pretty frilly frock and his long hair has to be tied back. So he looks like a bloke because he is a bloke.

Also anyone of us might wind up in hospital.

Yes, scrubs and hair tied back and quite possibly a five o'clock shadow.

Ah, yes, that was said in February I think.
I had forgotten that gem.

I have so many questions after that. Where has this mysterious supplementary bundle come from? Is it yet more undisclosed docs? Is the forensic IT guy tomorrow the respondents’ witness or the claimant’s? Given the huge amount of undisclosed info when Naomi was originally choosing her witnesses, does she get another chance now to pick additional witnesses?

There was a lot of emphasis on missing emails, Teams messages, Teams call logs etc today. I suspect some are in the new bundle. I also suspect that Sandie’s team insisted on the forensic IT guy being employed (like the stenographers - possibly also funded by them?).

I also want to know what Naomi was getting at when she said that there’s a lot the Tribunal haven’t been told. Relating to evidence hiding, crap investigatory processes, or Dr U’s conduct?

If Pete the Plumber came into a female changing room, and Nancy the Nurse was there, and he announced that he was a woman, and then immediately after that Helen the Healthcare assistant walked in, not having heard Pete say he was a woman, if Helen immediately walks out is Helen guilty of bad behaviour (according to NHS Fife)? Presumably Nancy would be guilty if she walked out after hearing Pete was a woman.