NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

As HR, I would probably have said similar regarding the lie. It’s objectively not possible to say DU lied, and it’s equally not possibly to say it unequivocally happened. If you’re not there you don’t know. It IS however possible to say that there is no evidence that it happened. Typically in HR speak this means it probably didn’t happen, but there’s no way of knowing ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’.

If I were asked point blank ‘did DU lie’ my response would be ‘I don’t know, but there was no evidence to support the claim’.

However, if the incident they are speaking about included the HCA’s statement, that would give additional weight to it, and I would have responded along the lines of ‘the evidence supports that it is unlikely to have happened’ but I wouldn’t hang my hat on saying it did not happen.

They seem to have called the least involved, least opinionated HR person (not in charge, hasn’t deemed the process ludicrous).

Chorus of He's behind you.

Any observers care to opine on today's proceedings? How do things feel in the room.

May the three day Kate Searle festival of howlers was too exciting - but it felt a little flat today.

(I know this is Sandie's life and this is a serious matter - not just for my entertainment).

At least from TT it is clear Fife management still believe Sandie is a witch just they don't have enough evidence of witchy black hat wearing behaviour.

Yeah, I'd have been interested to get Mechelle's take.

She's behind you!

Oh no she's not.

She's in front of you and the door is behind you.

In Jane Russell's re-examination, she asks Ms Hamilton whether she believed there had been any lies told regarding the patient safety claims.
No she said. There was simply no evidence to support them.

But had there genuinely been a patient incident then there should have been evidence. If harm had ensued from said incident which no one bothered to report then NHS Fife would potentially in deep trouble if the patient then tried to sue.

Yes, but Donaldson is there to give evidence about things that went on in NHSF, which I assume with be at least partly about NHSF complying (or not) with orders of the court to provide specified types of evidence.

Exactly

How do they know that Pete isn’t gender questioning or gender fluid?

it’s incoherent nonsense to allow a self selecting group to decide which facilties they can use when another group of no material difference would be disciplined

The two HR people who said the strongest stuff I have seen and heard were Melanie Jorgenson and Mechelle Sinclair Forrow, neither of whom were called by Fife as witnesses.

Arguing with GI true believers feels like the shape-shifting rabbit/duck illusion in first year psychology books. It's like the two sides see different things.

"It''s not a rabbit, it's a duck, see, so should be allowed to swim in the pond with the other ducks."

In the real world, Upton is provably a rabbit claiming he's a duck, by the various methods used to test wild claims, from common sense to a cheek swab.

But rabbit-turned-duck is backed by an organisation which makes it heresy to point out his big ears and buck teeth, or mention the way he hops rather than waddles. And if you do, he will furnish you with outlier examples of hopping ducks and rabbits with webbed toes.

For the analogy to be complete, let's also pretend the hypothetical rabbits* routinely prey on the duck population, outearn them, and occupy the majority of political offices worldwide that make laws affecting the ducks.

It's MENTAL how this seismic upheaval to society has been introduced by stealth and with zero consultation of the population it affects.

Thank god for all the brave duckies - I mean women - who have pushed back.

*Not all rabbits! But enough rabbits.

And definitely no way of knowing when it wasn’t reported in line with actual policy at the time of the event. KS appeared to be saying that they (Upton and KS) only recognised that there were patient safety issues when they were producing the DATIX. 🤔

I am looking forward to hearing Maggie Currer answer NC's questions about her 'foot in mouth' email which set up the Secret Six cabal. Seven once Upton was copied in.

Can anyone explain the “ no-ones reversed into a bin yet” references earlier this afternoon please?
Didn’t want to interrupt the flow today by asking at the time

I guess the HR woman is trying to be as neutral as possible and doesn't want to incriminate her employer too much.

I do find it depressing that so few of Sandie's colleagues are prepared to stick up for her. Not publicly at least.

If something is unproven then you cannot say whether it is a lie or not. If there is no evidence to prove an allegation, it’s a stretch to say it wasn’t a lie - because there is no evidence to prove that it was the truth. 😠

She is an experienced Hr Manager who is employed by NHS FIFE to protect the business, not the employees.
there are no emails with her saying it is ludicrous - she is too canny for that.
She knows her policies and procedures and has stuck to that

Oh no he’s not!!

I don’t think they need to find on that - just that the process created a hostile and demeaning environment for SP and she was subjected to to direct discrimination.

I am not a legal person so only guessing but by presenting the problem not just as a lack of evidence — which is not evidence in itself — she is demonstrating that there is equal potential for the allegations to have been fabricated.

There is, in my view, more evidence supporting this version than the other BTW.

But they won’t be finding on that as fact, as it were, but what they will be trying to judge is whether there is sufficient evidence evidence that the I/x process was delayed as they considered the pros and cons of these or tried to find further evidence.

KD has provided lots that back that up. Never mind that they might have been willing previously to take a Doctor’s word, under oath? That he (DU) believes that’s what happened — the whole shebang of lies, lack of disclosure etc completely belies the ‘trust me I’m a doctor’ that might have been the panel’s inclination otherwise.

Gender identity hasn't been given legitimacy through the Equality Act - Gender reassignment has. Or perhaps that's your point.

In theory, she should not know about the KS bin fire.

Before I go away for a lie-down

In my role as self-appointed collection-tin rattler:

There has been a wish expressed to do something as a gesture of thanks to the incomparable thread-wrangler, Nauticant - even though she doesn't want one
Obviously we'd love to shower you in gifts in real life, Nauti, but that's not possible, so the suggestion has been made to make a donation in her honour to a cause she has highlighted on each thread:

Would it be possible for people to turn their attention to this post byfrom a previous thread:
I have a similar court case in England's side which aims to protect single-sex facilities for women. It is in need of support to cover legal fees and can be found by searching for Faye Russell-Caldicott on crowdjustice.com
"I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex."
There's more information here: https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

which has a link to the Crowdjustice page.

Many of us will want to keep our donations anonymous, but maybe somebody - me? but I'm not on X or FB so may not be able to contact her directly - could tip Faye off that any mysterious surge in donations is us

As we did back in Feb, we can also donate to Sex Matters as a gesture of thanks to Naomi Cunningham [Chair of SM] and the rest of Sandie's team.
Donate at Sex Matters - It shouldn’t take courage to say so.
I've alerted SM so they know any unexpected donations are from us, again.

And Tribunal Tweets also deserve our thanks - I guess their donation details are on their webpage, I think somebody has the details of where it is - on their substack page or something?

Obviously not everybody has spare cash but rest assured that the donations are made on behalf of all of us, so everybody is part of the gesture of appreciation

Quite, but gender reassignment could be as little as muttering the magic words ‘I feel like a woman’ it’s gender identity by another name. I wouldn’t agree with it even if it was only for those who’d had full surgery, but at least that would give it something concrete to be based on.

Wow thread 41!

I'm also confused at the HR witness; the email was much more damning and showed that HR had some grasp of the problem. I'm not sure why she didn't say that in court?