NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

Oh I made soup this morning too (tomato, mostly)! I had a bit of a panic when I couldn't find the celery initially, and then discovered the base was a bit frozen after being rammed into the back of the fridge under some Picpoul, but I managed to salvage it. It has compensated for tonight's Chippy tea from a 5-a-day perspective.

In case anybody is wondering Maggie Currer was the second Consultant who objected to Sandie returning to work (who presumably should have disclosed the emails too).

NO! sorry to capslock but needed for emphasis because CRT tvs are becoming v popular in some circles, as a way for Gen Z & Gen A to play retro video games authentically. And then if they aquire one of the old bedroom size tv/vcr/dvd combos they start collecting video tapes and dvds to watch on it!!

It's only now the tribunal is done for the day that the usual deflection of BUT DSDS begins. Not a lot to push against while NC is actively skewering nonsense in court.

I suppose it'll pass the time until Fife are due to resume embarrassing themselves tomorrow morning.

you do those are gametes and not people? 🤔Perhaps not - it would explain a lot 😆

Don't know if it made the transcript but KS said after the last case management order, every single member of staff had to check every single email and if they couldnt or didn't they had to sit with someone from IT who would go through it with them. 😂

For the avoidance of doubt, noone is claiming that Dr. Upton has a DSD or is intersex (two terms for the same conditions). Dr. Upton was "out" as a transwomen in the workplace.

And gametes determine...

But why was that not done the first time around? How were staff asked for related documents for the first search? It all seems a bit slapdash and haphazard.

Male people have bodies designed to make sperm, female people have bodies designed to make eggs that's two. If you think some people are neither what are their bodies designed to produce?

Still waiting on good women and single sex spaces....

They play a role in determining sex which is a complex developmental process.

my sister is intersex she was correctly sexed within hours of birth and this was seen as necessary to then help with a treatment plan, you cannot treat someone with a medical condition without knowing what sex they are because their sex determines treatment.
intersex does not exist to prop up trans ideology it is a medical condition and yes every single person who is intersex is male or female and if the doctors know your baby may be intersex they try to sex them even before they are born to give parents time to get their head around it and to help them understand plans for treatment.

Do you not understand that gametes are fairly fundamental in human/mammalian sexual dimorphism?

Was thinking of having a Tandoori tonite something put me off.

@Bubblegumicecreamm Boswell Today account on X does great AM & PM summaries each day

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1947684310263148790

Sorry, not really following your logic there Tandoora. A binary is still a binary when there are only very rare exceptions.

It's a bit worrying when a medical consultant doesn't seem to know that we all have a phenotype. Phenotype is the visible expression of all that information coded in our chromosomes. We can tell if babies have an X or Y chromosome just by looking at their naked baby bodies because they've already spent nine months growing a body with genitals that correspond to their second X or their Y chromosome.

Honestly, you look inside the baby's nappy and if there's a willy it's a boy and if there's a vulva it's a girl. If the baby's newborn it wont even be wearing a nappy yet so how hard can it be? Humans have been doing this since we came swinging down from the trees. Before we had birth certificates or consultants or even hospitals.

And that's with only very rare exceptions - even with most DSDs it's usually possible to tell the sex without doing a chromosome test though you'd presumably still do some tests to figure out exactly what went wrong. (The rare exceptions tend to turn up in high-level women's sports more often than pure chance, for obvious reasons.) So yes, human sex is a binary with exceptions, not a spectrum nor a continuum.

You might do best to go to the Tribunal Tweets substack and look at their links to media reports.

Just as a quicker way of sifting the info.

Those saying the Chinooks were for Trump were right. I'd assumed they were British (only saw them from directly underneath) but they're apparently American.

They were following the main chopper route rather than in the direction of Menie so maybe only going to Dyce, which would explain why I didn't see them on FR as they'd have landed by the time I got back inside and loaded FR.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/25332852.us-military-seen-aberdeen-ahead-donald-trump-visit/

From the last thread by @NotMyRealAccount :

As a doctor by trade myself, I'm horrified but not entirely surprised at Dr Upton and now Dr Searle being the witnesses who think they can one-up the legal professionals

About halfway through reading KS this afternoon on TT, about the time of the “Google it” remark, I got a flashback to Allison Bailey’s ET. Some of her fellow barristers gave evidence and they made terrible witnesses, presumably because they were used to being the ones asking the questions. One in particular (can’t remember his name) was practically shouting in frustration at not being able to control the narrative.

Ive only read TT, but I got the same vibe from KS. Doctors being trustworthy because of the GMC code like it’s some kind of forcefield that stops them Doing Bad Things. A complete confidence in her own actions and a complete unawareness of other people (ie Sandie) as human beings with their own feelings. I’m imagining consultants as portrayed by James Robertson Justice in the “Doctor” films with Dirk Bogarde - convinced they are God and everyone else can bend around them, from porters through patients up to Matron.

Well if she doesn’t know if she is male or female with all her medical qualifications what hopes have we got 😂

@Jitrenka agree, it was just sobering watching that first penny drop in real time. And I'm not sure it would have dropped or at least to the extent it did if Dr U hadn't changed in her estimation after she heard some of his testimony that she disputed.

Because before it was just a nurse over there suffering at his hands. Today she heard she had been disrespected too.

Wasn't there guidance about this, maybe a couple of years ago?

Edit as I meant to quote this post by @Greyskybluesky
Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere but what does "engage" actually mean in this context?
How do you "engage" in a changing room? Does it just mean chit chat and pleasantries? Why the big emphasis on "engaging"? Or lack of it?
I used to work with a woman I disliked, the feeling was mutual. We both had to get changed in the toilets, we both totally ignored each other. We did not "engage" in any way. It's just how it was.

I assume that yes, engaging means interacting in some way. Chit chat, sharing tampons (just kidding). I've never been a chit-chatty type, and certainly not with people I don't know or like.
If I bumped into someone in a toilet or changing room, I probably wouldn't say a word apart from 'excuse me' if I needed to get past.
Is there an expectation to engage with people now outside of the course of your work? And not doing so considered some sort of bullying?

Upton did mention something about not smiling at him. I don't homeland smiling at people usually. Saying that I have heard of instances where people have accused others of bullying because they didnt smile or chat-chat with them.

It probably makes me sound quite miserable and antisocial but I just wanted to get on with my job. I was polite and considered that was enough.
Since when do we have to chit chat about Love Island or holidays or whatever. And I certainly wasn't about to engage with random colleagues in toilets/changing areas. Even less male ones.

I think I'd rather eat celery soup than read Tandora's tedious attempts at gotchas that we've already discounted many, many times before.

@Tandora are you claiming Dr Upton & other trans identified people have DSD's?

Would you not agree DSD's are a completely different issue from claiming to be transgender?

The Upton Blight? Or that fine word, blain? The Upton Blain?