NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

It was just a guess on my part but made sense.

The definition of sex is binary.

The sex of a tiny number of people is more difficult to determine. You would be looking at very rare conditions that involve e.g. mosaicism. It does not follow that because these conditions exist, sex is generally difficult to determine.

Just makes me think of this meme

He has had each of them turn themselves inside out for him and its really sad that as women they have let themselves be eaten up by this stuff which has now shown them to be completely unreliable.

There is a relationship between polygenic sex-hormone signalling complexes, androgen imprinting and psychosexual development. It's facile to assume otherwise. E.g. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/390/5104458

NHS Fife will end up causing concerns for the whole population if doctors say they are not experts in saying who is male and who is female.

KS is helping drag down all their reputations

Ah it goes like this:

Pregnant person: "Help help I'm giving birth right here in the car park!"

Dr. Searle "I will help you, I am a doctor. What are your preferred pronouns?"

As obviously Dr. Searle, unlike Sandie, has respect for trans men. She doesn't want to ask someone to call an ambulance for "her" if it's a "him".

That would be a hate incident and seemingly far more serious than possibly neglecting a patient.

It's a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I knew I was a girl long before I ever clapped eyes on my birth certificate.

And parents can find out the sex of their baby way before its even born (no need to wait for any ''assigning'' at birth) and before any birth certificate is issued.

GCC’s Leslie Thomas KC is the barrister who comes to mind.

It's a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I knew I was a girl long before I ever clapped eyes on my birth certificate.

And parents can find out the sex of their baby way before its even born (no need to wait for any ''assigning'' at birth) and before any birth certificate is issued.

It also plays to the understanding that the people who you are presenting to are bright enough to follow the narrative and spot the oops moments for themselves. I think if I was a well regarded judge I would get very miffed if people thought I needed every point spotlight and emphasised.

I wish NC, in her summing up could use the frequent misgenderings by defence witnesses- the 'allies'- to demonstrate how difficult it is for people to keep using wrong sex pronouns when in stressful situations.

They all start out OK and then lose it when flustered.

Maybe not appropriate or relevent to the case for NC to do that I realise- but it happens so much in all these tribunals- and it would be great for someone with reach to point this out while it's live.

By the end of this, I'm sure everyone will have spotted the pattern.

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1133120326844506112

Wasn't it Allison Bailley's tribunal where Ben Cooper actually got to say "you know how this works - I ask the questions?"

Or am I getting confused because there's been a few recent GC tribunals with highly educated witnesses who are so convinced of their own rightness they don't know when to shut up?

Would you not agree DSD's are a completely different issue from claiming to be transgender?

No I would not agree with this. The two issues are fundamentally interrelated, because arguments about transness (both political and scientific) rest on understandings/ definitions of sex.

are you claiming Dr Upton & other trans identified people have DSD's?

I'm claiming that transness almost certainly has a biological underpinning tied to broader processes of sexual development. It's actually facile to assume otherwise.

Too late. She is untrustworthy. Ringleader of the ‘burn the witch mean girls’ enabled by her own self belief that she is infallible and propped up by Carol Potter

Christ,not read the whole thread today, butvthus seems such a damning write up!! As in, hauled before a professional competence board or some such

I notice every single one of the articles you are quoting seems to be after 2015 in fact every time someone wants to use intersex conditions to help further the trans cause it seems they cant find older articles.
My mum and dad have support group leaflets and newsletters and medical journal articles and doctors notes and medical records going back decades and the fact that its the same thing over and over that people are twisting these conditions to fit the narrative that sex isnt binary is honestly shocking and kinda disgusting.
if you would like some real academic articles that arent bending over backwards to fit a sex isnt binary narrative. I can see if i can get some for you!

Sweat, witness, sweat
Sex is a nebulous dog whistle
You and me go through all the emails
All of NHS Fifes gristle

So I will ask you your sex
And I'll make you look nuts
It is M or it's a F
A simple question it's not tough

Cold chicken, salad.

Beer.

I actually don't know for sure if I am down as female on my birth certificate. I have not looked at it for many decades. When I have looked at it I can't recall if I read all sections or not.

It also isn't quite the same as what the doctor assigns at birth as there could be an error in the admin, although obviously there are processes to prevent that happening.

I am however entirely sure I am a woman, having sung along to Shania Twain's "Man I feel like a woman" on many occasions.

Followed up, of course, that they are absolutely right in 99.9% of cases. Most doctors know that.

How very odd to take objection to referencing the most up to date scientific research. On any other topic that would be considered essential.

Tanya De Grunwald discusses this quite a few times in her podcast

That if a workplace systematically and relentlessly either gets rid off or encourages to vote with their feet, their staff who question, are analytical, critical, curious and conscientious on thorny issues. Then they are left with the unthinking, uncritical, less thorough and conscientious. Their workplace and organisation is then at far greater risk of high stakes mess ups because all the people who would have been brave or outspoken or willing to question and speak up have long since departed the building.

Getting rid of the "tricky types" might seem an easier path but it doesn't end up saving you issues in the end.

I've found her series very interesting and thought provoking.

Apparently my post was removed because Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

I have asked for details.