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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:16

ItsCoolForCats · 22/07/2025 16:10

Any guesses on what the BBC headline will be tonight?

"Whatever Happens, We Know It Was Sandie's Fault"

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:16

GravyOnToast · 22/07/2025 16:00

This is infuriating Most 3 year olds could correctly sex male and female bodies at a glance but we have intelligent, educated adults saying on oath they can't be sure. How did we end up at this place?

Talk of peaking in a prior thread was interesting - I would have thought KS, no matter how bought in to GI she'd previously been, would have realised she'd made huge errors of judgement in her actions on this and would now be attempting to do a 'mea culpa' but pointing blame on lack of policies and just doing what IB told her. But no, she's doubling down and kissing goodbye to professional credibility by stating that she only knows she's female because her brith certificate says so. Jaw dropping indeed.

Perhaps because it's not always true.

viques · 22/07/2025 16:17

CatKings · 22/07/2025 15:59

Anyone who thinks sex is assigned needs to be struck off as a doctor

As does anyone who thinks gender is “assigned” at birth.

BezMills · 22/07/2025 16:17

When KS repeatedly said 'I'm not an expert' on basic facts of biology that she quite clearly is an expert on, I think it speaks to the older generation (a whole generation older than team blue hair, the current 15-30s) being completely bamboozled by culture that has seemingly moved on without them. They/we are afraid to be seen as a horrible person, and know that there's things we can say that would make us seem that way. So it's natural to just abdicate all responsibility and say 'I'm no expert on this' with the implication being, you'd need to ask your 15yo niece first.

I mean this is basic facts about biology, not trying to set some 1980s VCR with a badly translated manual to record the boxing at 2am (in which case, definitely ask a 10yo for advice).

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:17

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/07/2025 16:12

What a revealing afternoon. It’s quite sad to see professionals who I’m sure in most aspects of their professional lives are caring towards others, being outed as being precisely the opposite.
As is repeatedly pointed out - yet another example of how trans ideology trashes so much that it touches. People end up not just looking foolish (a doctor claiming not to be an expert in identifying a baby’s sex) but are exposed in court for concealing evidence they’re required to provide. All in the interest of a powerful man determined to be in women’s changing rooms.

Agree. Trans ideology destroys everything it touches. It's like the opposite of The Midas Touch. There really should be a new word for this...

FallinUltra · 22/07/2025 16:17

The forensic phone/computer witness is called by the respondents.

tartyflette · 22/07/2025 16:18

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 22/07/2025 16:10

Anyone else keep reading Lauren Harris as Lauren Harries?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Harries

Yes, me! I had an actual WTF?? moment.😁

GreenFriedTomato · 22/07/2025 16:19

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:11

When the tribunal ends for the day, I'd be grateful for any observers' thoughts on Kate Searle's presentation.

Slow over rate is a bit of an issue in these tribunals.

Lots of long pauses before answering. Choosing her words very carefully. Seemed quite arrogant and her tone of voice quite confrontational when NC suggested a cover up.
Then lots of stuttering and 'i don't recall's' when asked about missing emails.
The bit where she said 'you can't prove a link between the emails' made her sound guilty as hell. Like: .It doesn't matter what you think, you can't PROVE it!
It's in the transcript but she admitted that her kindness and fairness didn't extend to sandy. It never occured to her to think of Sandie's upset and she was quite matter of fact. Almost as if why should I ?
Then there was a part where she seemed a bit flustered when it looked like she was realising that Upton had claimed she'd said things that she didn't. That's she'd instructed him to use the changing room which she denied. I'd have to go and look at the transcript to be sure.

Typical arrogant doctor imo.
I hope NC shreds her pieces.

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:19

My 14yo daughter just came home & asked what I was watching - "It looks kind of boring" 😁

Oh No DD this is an ET which has the potential to impact every woman in the UK and ringfence our single sex spaces so you will never be forced to undress in front of a man. See that lady there - she is an actual doctor who is pretending we get to choose what sex we are. I know I know.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 16:19

Greyskybluesky · 22/07/2025 16:16

This case will have done wonders to educate people who don't know much about this ideology.

The fact is, it could have taken place almost anywhere. But it's not just anywhere. It's a HOSPITAL. With educated people who have medical training. And those people are saying they don't know how sex works.

Aside from SP's claim (go Sandie!) the sunlight she has brought is IMMENSE

It's the finest example of Operation Let Them Speak ever.

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:20

Again, her testimony reminds me of that song;

" Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology " 😂

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 16:20

ItsCoolForCats · 22/07/2025 16:10

Any guesses on what the BBC headline will be tonight?

It should be -

'Consultant tells astonished tribunal that she cannot correctly identify which sex newborn babies are'

Or if it's a headline grabbing tabloid -
'Top Doc Rocks Courtroom! Can't tell sex!'

But will undoubtedly be in the Guardian -

'Intimidating scenes in court as doctor is unfairly grilled'

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 16:20

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:16

Perhaps because it's not always true.

Presumably as she is old enough to have qualified as a Dr she is old enough to have started her periods and if not to have had investigations as to why not so she would be aware if she was one of the vanishing small number of people who have a very rare DSD that means they show no sign of male puberty despite not being technically female.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 22/07/2025 16:20

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 16:07

We went an entire thread without any recipes and now I don't know what to have for my tea.

I find myself leaning towards sausages...

Keenovay · 22/07/2025 16:20

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:17

Agree. Trans ideology destroys everything it touches. It's like the opposite of The Midas Touch. There really should be a new word for this...

Beclownment? Beclownification?

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:21

BezMills · 22/07/2025 16:17

When KS repeatedly said 'I'm not an expert' on basic facts of biology that she quite clearly is an expert on, I think it speaks to the older generation (a whole generation older than team blue hair, the current 15-30s) being completely bamboozled by culture that has seemingly moved on without them. They/we are afraid to be seen as a horrible person, and know that there's things we can say that would make us seem that way. So it's natural to just abdicate all responsibility and say 'I'm no expert on this' with the implication being, you'd need to ask your 15yo niece first.

I mean this is basic facts about biology, not trying to set some 1980s VCR with a badly translated manual to record the boxing at 2am (in which case, definitely ask a 10yo for advice).

What neither she nor the people who are STILL spreading misinformation about DSDs in 2025 never answer is why, if sex is so complicated, do they not ever advocate for open scrapping of single sex spaces and label everywhere as mixed sex? And why, if sex is such a specialist issue, do they always know a man is a woman if he says he is?

It's as if they only want to retain SSSs as validation tools for men...

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:21

Its Taco Tuesday - dinner problems solved

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 16:21

"I'm not an expert [at determining sex]

You're a doctor! A consultant, no less. If you're not an expert, who is?

MarieDeGournay · 22/07/2025 16:22

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 22/07/2025 16:20

I find myself leaning towards sausages...

Edited

Best post of the day, and the competition is fierce😂

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:22

NeedToChangeName · 22/07/2025 16:13

All these Drs claiming not to know what sex they are / the difference between sex and gender

This is hilarious. And terrifying. In equal measure

How do any of them know which toilets to use?

Edited

If it really were difficult to determine sex, we now have the technology to routinely check and record chromosome information that would indicate a DSD.

The fact that hospitals are overwhelmingly more likely to rely on their own observations and patient self report tells you that it isn't a problem.

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:22

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 22/07/2025 16:20

I find myself leaning towards sausages...

Edited

I think NC is having mincemeat...

viques · 22/07/2025 16:22

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 16:05

Engage. Validate. Support Human.

KS's personal transgender changing room policy:

"Get your tits out for the lads Sandy, stop being so unkind"

Yes,

“DU is a married doctor, Sandy, he’s seen menstrual blood before,it’s not going to upset him”

MyrtleLion · 22/07/2025 16:22

Jerabilis · 22/07/2025 16:04

What is the 'other matter' the judge is referring to hear?!? Very mean to leave us in the dark like this!!

I don’t know what it is, but I do know that points of law must be discussed privately to avoid speculation and consideration of things that are ruled inadmissible.

For example, if JR named who signed off the NHS Fife document, which I believe was requested yesterday, then those people might be targeted by the public.

Also if something was ruled not admissible, but was discussed in open court, then people might say, but what about that document that said the thing, when the thing was not relevant to the case.

As an example, when KS’ email to the 20 consultants was found, it’s likely NC asked the Judge if she could admit it. The Judge has said yes, because it’s relevant. But if the Judge had said no in open court, we would be shouting show us the email to 20 consultants. No one would have visibility of the document because it wasn’t disclosed, and there would be speculation, which may affect witnesses and/or the judgment. Fortunately in that case the document was admitted into evidence.

Sometimes even mentioning that such a document exists can be enough to create speculation, so the public are not informed of what was discussed. Better that we speculate about the subject discussion than we speculate about the point they were arguing.

Llamasarellovely · 22/07/2025 16:22

I hesitate to go with The Fife Touch because this actually isn't won yet. I can't see SP losing, but every barrister has won cases they shouldn't and lost cases they shouldn't, it's not over yet.

SqueakyDinosaur · 22/07/2025 16:23

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:17

Agree. Trans ideology destroys everything it touches. It's like the opposite of The Midas Touch. There really should be a new word for this...

Enshittification (there's a great essay called The Enshittification of Everything)?

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