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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

OP posts:
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29
Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:45

Nameychangington · 22/07/2025 20:40

That's Sandie's punishment for being found not guilty basically.

A reflective practice discussion is where you talk about something which happened and look at how you handled it and how you could have done it differently/better.

I had to do one after I had my formal grievance against my manager upheld (partially, on appeal - the NHS hates to admit how badly some managers fuck up with the zero training or support they get from higher up). Neither of us enjoyed that whatsoever. It seems odd to say the least to suggest it as an appropriate outcome for someone cleared of the changes against them.

That’s what I thought. So they still thought she had handled herself badly, just not proven to the threshold of gross misconduct?

GreenFriedTomato · 22/07/2025 20:46

IKeepMyToasterInTheCupboard · 22/07/2025 20:28

Just to change the subject can someone please start talking about their superior lemon drizzle cake recipe. Or 5000 things to do with a stick of celery, I don't care.

Yes PLEASE more recipes involving celery. Or celeriac. Or anything! Or i fear the next 3000 posts are going to be full of irrelevant intersex ,gender bollocks drivel

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:47

I fucking hate celeriac.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:47

I’ve updated my portmanteau to Tandeluvelance.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 20:48

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:43

Someone described it earlier, as ‘sit in that corner and have a good think about what you did that led us to persecute you.’

Victim blaming. You made us do it.

Ignoring your initial requests for no men in the FCR didn't work, suspension didn't work, months of disciplinary didn't work, it looks like a tribunal isn't going to work so it's off to room 101 and rats next.

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:48

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:24

I was so shocked by what I was reading that I got access to watch. All I can say is, watching him was even worse.

He was so, so smug and complacent. The line about being a woman and not being a robot, so is biologically female was 🤯 and delivered with a smirk. He used this irritating faux demure voice and was very tight lipped. He came across as utterly false and disingenuous- deceptive- above and beyond his portraying himself as female. It felt very disconcerting because he was so controlled and contained as he maintained this facade. Really creepy.

He was reminiscent of an actor playing a psychopath- obviously psychopaths aren’t actually like that!

I could read the attitude in the transcript. Everything he says feels very self-serving and smug, you can read that he feels morally superior and self righteous.

I can almost imagine what you’ve described and am going to read the rest with that in mind. How were people in the room reacting to this performance? Reading the transcript I can’t get a feel at all of how it’s being received.

In fact what you’ve said puts into perspective what NC said about him trying to assert dominance.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 22/07/2025 20:48

Nameychangington · 22/07/2025 20:40

That's Sandie's punishment for being found not guilty basically.

A reflective practice discussion is where you talk about something which happened and look at how you handled it and how you could have done it differently/better.

I had to do one after I had my formal grievance against my manager upheld (partially, on appeal - the NHS hates to admit how badly some managers fuck up with the zero training or support they get from higher up). Neither of us enjoyed that whatsoever. It seems odd to say the least to suggest it as an appropriate outcome for someone cleared of the changes against them.

It could be argued that the Email 6 may have already indulged in some reflective practice given none of them could find the email

Namechangedagain999 · 22/07/2025 20:48

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:47

I fucking hate celeriac.

That is absolutely off topic. It is celery not celeriac! A completely different vegetable.

FeedbackProvider · 22/07/2025 20:48

I can’t stop thinking about how - charitably - the discovery process was so poorly managed by Fife that important emails were missed initially and that even when provided later, they still left the impression of skullduggery.

That 6 recipients, 3 of whom were actively involved with the legal side of things from the beginning, all failed to produce that email is astounding. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for the judge to conclude that Fife has been open and honest.

And then for KS to comment something like “you can’t prove that” during that discussion. It’s actually amazing.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 20:48

tribunalObserver · 22/07/2025 20:39

The judge asked NC and JR to get together and agree a timetable that would have them finished with all witnesses by 4pm on Monday, iirr.

In fairness over several tribunals, it does seem that NC always seriously underestimates how much time she's going to need for cross-examination. I don't know what the implications for her of making more accurate estimates would be, but at this stage, "make an estimate and then double it" would be a decent start!

She has been blamed in this way by JR but actually a huge amount of time has been taken up extracting the court- ordered documents from Fife. It's obviously much harder to estimate the time needed when you only have a suspicion but no evidence of what has happened - because the other side is withholding evidence.

I'm not sure the time spent dealing with Fife's Statement has helped the time-managementof the case either.

GailBlancheViola · 22/07/2025 20:50

Yes I understand. Which is precisely why NHS dice lawyers are trying to show that actually she is a bigot .

And failing dismally because there is ZERO evidence to uphold those claims. You know what evidence is I presume? It is not hearsay passed through several different people and embellished much as you personally and your various allies would like it to be.

OnlyAWomansHeart · 22/07/2025 20:50

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:04

Case summary, from a non expert onlooker:

DU started using women’s changing rooms.
SP tried to avoid using them when he was there
DU started keeping notes on her behaviour
SP told him he shouldn’t be there and asked him to give her privacy (menstrual flooding to manage)
DU found a senior colleague to cry at and was escorted out.
DU wrote a complaint email.
Various senior people circulated emails saying SPs behaviour was awful and how they were on His side.
SP was suspended, removed from her usual shifts, a disciplinary was started for bullying and harassing DU and compromising patient safety

SP takes DU and NHSF to employment tribunal.
At tribunal, it becomes apparent-
loads of people suddenly don’t know what sex they are, or how they could be expected to know.
NHSF apparently has no processes or policies, and doesn’t follow what it has, and sends ill advised emails out undermining their own processes.
NHSF has failed to disclose information relevant to the case
No one actually thinks DU is female, they just do a decent job of usually using the wrong pronouns for him
Disciplinary investigation finds SP not to have bullied or harassed DU, and not to have compromised patient safety.
DU imagined she might compromise patient safety and raised the issue on that basis.

So far, the worst thing anyone has found to say about SP is that she agrees with some of what Trump says. In an attempt to paint her as the issue, they have interrogated her family about her behaviour, her and their political opinions, accusations of racism and homophobia.

Meanwhile DU has misrepresented multiple situations and accused a colleague of bad unprofessional behaviour.
NHSF has hidden evidence, been ticked off by the information commissioner, and employed people who don’t do or understand their job and coordinated an attempt to bully an experienced nurse out of her job.

The world is looking on aghast at the shit show that is NHSF and the money they have poured away.

Meanwhile Tandora is trying to distract from the appalling situation by talking about DSDs and whether some people feel more or less male than other males WHICH IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE THREAD, and New gender critical people spawn every time an NHSF witness opens their mouth to speak.

We need a portmanteau for deluded and irrelevant.
I propose ‘diluvelant’.

Nailed it.

I salute you Sir. (Or whatever your chosen pronouns are)

prh47bridge · 22/07/2025 20:50

SigourneyHoward · 22/07/2025 19:58

Sorry for the double quote but i'm confused.

If it is clear that there was an email exchange that wasn't produced in discovery (although am still a little unclear if that email exchange has now been shared and what it atually says)why have the R's called the IT guy as witness. Does proving the email chain wasn't severed help the fact that 6 poeple didn't proffer up in discovery - not really I think. Or are the R's calling him so they can get a narrative in ahead of NC? Or do the R's think they've discovered a SP smoking gun, or could it be something else entirely..

I think there are two IT people being called. One is an expert in forensic examination of mobile phones, presumable being called to talk about what, if anything, was found on Upton's phone. The other is Fife's Information Security Manager, who I presume is there to talk about what Fife did to comply with the disclosure order. That presumption may be wrong, but I can't imagine he has any useful evidence to offer about the actions of DU, SP or any of the other participants.

Olderbadger1 · 22/07/2025 20:51

I am a rubbish cook, useless at advance planning, and tend to get distracted when grocery shopping and end up with a sweet potato, cornflakes, and a family pack of minirolls. My laughingly-named 'store-cupboard' has out-of-date pasta, rice, flour, sugar, and random herbs and spices. So what I'd really appreciate are VERY easy recipies that can be made with 3-4 entirely unrelated ingredients. Pretty please.

prh47bridge · 22/07/2025 20:51

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 20:00

Do you think Fife is playing some crazy long game and trying to make this happen? So that the proper judgement doesn't happen and they and TRAs can claim they lost only because of that?

I doubt it. I don't think they are that well organised. This looks to me like the classic case of a defendant that thought they could hide what they had done by failing to disclose or destroying important evidence.

Binglebong · 22/07/2025 20:52

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:07

I know this is probably old news for everyone in this thread but I’m just reading through the threads where DU is answering NC for the first time. I can’t believe what I’m reading. How are there people listening to his POV and thinking this is a normal stance? He has admitted he knew his presence was making her uncomfortable? He says bodies don’t matter when it comes to male/ female? Called himself a biological female? The whole plumber-gate? I’ve not even finished reading and have had to take a break.

SP is very brave to have said something, I’m not sure if I would have been brave enough to but I guess that’s the problem isn’t it? It can feel like we can’t call an orange an orange without backlash. Hats off to SP

Which thread was this please? I can't face checking the first 20!

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:52

Namechangedagain999 · 22/07/2025 20:48

That is absolutely off topic. It is celery not celeriac! A completely different vegetable.

Good. Let's keep the bastard celeriac well out of it.

Meanwhile, not sure if this was shared on the thread?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3le58k858o

'The supervisor of a transgender doctor involved in a confrontation with a nurse in a changing room considered reporting the incident to Police Scotland.
Sandie Peggie and Dr Beth Upton exchanged words on Christmas Eve 2023 at the Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy.
Dr Kate Searle, a consultant in emergency medicine, told an employment tribunal the incident was "extremely distressing" for Dr Upton, with Ms Peggie's words being "offensive and humiliating".'
...
'The witness said she felt "Beth would have grounds for going to the police" based on what was said, although she was unsure if it would fit the criteria for being a hate crime.
Dr Searle added what she was told "met the criteria for a hate incident" but Dr Upton decided to not involve police at that stage of proceedings.'

(Just FYI, there are no 'criteria' for hate incidents in Scotland. Absolutely fucking anything fits, it's all about the perception of the person reporting. )

Dr Kate Searle arrives for a hearing at a tribunal - she is wearing a grey top, has a brown handbag over their shoulder and has brunette hair

NHS consultant considered reporting trans row to police

Dr Kate Searle told an employment tribunal the incident was "extremely distressing" for Dr Beth Upton.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3le58k858o

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 22/07/2025 20:52

FeedbackProvider · 22/07/2025 20:48

I can’t stop thinking about how - charitably - the discovery process was so poorly managed by Fife that important emails were missed initially and that even when provided later, they still left the impression of skullduggery.

That 6 recipients, 3 of whom were actively involved with the legal side of things from the beginning, all failed to produce that email is astounding. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for the judge to conclude that Fife has been open and honest.

And then for KS to comment something like “you can’t prove that” during that discussion. It’s actually amazing.

Shows none are trustworthy in spite of KS assurances

Jerabilis · 22/07/2025 20:54

Mollyollydolly · 22/07/2025 19:18

I'm still struggling to understand, and have been struggling to understand since February how an organisation as large as the NHS doesn't have IT experts who trawl the emails of witnesses to make sure nothing is missed for the Tribunal. Is that what other large organisations do? Why would you leave it to individuals who (being charitable) might not be computer savvy?

in my organisation:

  • For FOIs we're generally told the specific search terms. We are clearly told to check all mailboxes, archives etc
  • For the COVID public inquiry they were very clear on what they did / did not need and how to add documents/ emails etc to the storage site.

I always assumed that it couldn't just be left to IT as we had to positively affirm we had included everything, but this again seems to be an area where NHS Fife are lacking a systematic approach...

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:55

unwashedanddazed · 22/07/2025 20:33

I re-read his testimony a few days ago and thought to myself, if he is prepared to say those crazy things in a court, with media and public looking on, then there's nothing Sandie could have said to make him agree that he should leave the changing room to give her privacy from the male gaze. She was up against a brick wall of pure fantasy and her logic can't break it down.

However, his tears and rage that followed shows he knows what he is. It's just that no one is allowed to say it out loud.

I agree and it makes me wonder about the people who are enabling him, surely their colleagues aren’t genuinely buying into this delusion? Even before SP ever said anything, he was not happy she wasn’t playing along in the CR.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:55

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:48

I could read the attitude in the transcript. Everything he says feels very self-serving and smug, you can read that he feels morally superior and self righteous.

I can almost imagine what you’ve described and am going to read the rest with that in mind. How were people in the room reacting to this performance? Reading the transcript I can’t get a feel at all of how it’s being received.

In fact what you’ve said puts into perspective what NC said about him trying to assert dominance.

You couldn’t see much- the panel and legal folk were sideways on to the camera. DU more facing the camera with a couple of rows of people behind him, seating slightly raised. They were all his supporters. They were nicknamed ‘The Wall of Sad’ by a PP on here.

There were no real reactions from anyone else we could see- NC is endlessly calm and professional, though laser focused. JR was more arm wavey and emotional in style. Lots of indignation about questions and lines of discussion.
Watching DU and NC was a bit like fencing. Intense Focus and all tightly contained.

Shedmistress · 22/07/2025 20:55

how words are understood is never a question of “fact” it’s a question of perspective

Gravity is a word. The perspective is of course, that anyone jumping off a high roof is going to find out pretty quick that it is a fact that they are not likely to prove the point that they thought they were making.

A bit like every person on the planet being conceived from sperm and egg and not spam and chips.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 20:56

Haven't RTFT, but has anyone posted this yet? JR is not having a good week.

Read the judgement here:

Microsoft Word - set.wilkins.reasons.docx

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1947730180489023877

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1947730180489023877

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 20:57

FeedbackProvider · 22/07/2025 20:48

I can’t stop thinking about how - charitably - the discovery process was so poorly managed by Fife that important emails were missed initially and that even when provided later, they still left the impression of skullduggery.

That 6 recipients, 3 of whom were actively involved with the legal side of things from the beginning, all failed to produce that email is astounding. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for the judge to conclude that Fife has been open and honest.

And then for KS to comment something like “you can’t prove that” during that discussion. It’s actually amazing.

I genuinely don't know how they'll come back from that. NHS Fife were already deemed 'negligent' in failing to disclose documents in February, were criticised by the Information Commissioner for not dealing with FOI requests correctly and now have been shown to hide an email in which staff members involved in the investigation colluded with each other to hide evidence.

It's gone from possible incompetence to deliberate behaviour which veers on criminal.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:58

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:44

firstly, how words are understood is never a question of “fact” it’s a question of perspective. Secondly, In my initial post I expressed that this was a personal opinion/
preference against the term. Third, however I do think it’s one that’s widely shared because of the historical use of the word , so that if you say “sex is a spectrum” , an implication of continuous linearity is part of what people imagine and object to. That doesn’t mean that people dont sometimes use and interpret the word differently, of course, it’s just part of what I think many people often understand / imagine when they hear that word.

Edited

Well for what it's worth I also don't think sex is a spectrum.

I think it's very, very binary.

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