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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 20:34

KateShugakIsALegend · 22/07/2025 20:33

@JazzyContemporaneousNotes

How about oat and banana pancakes?

Equal quantities, plus water / oat milk to liquify.

Fry in 10cm dollops.

Serve with fruit and maple syrup.

(And Italy have just scored!)

Edited

Say what. I missed the goal. Oh ffs

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:35

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:28

Yes I think it has those implications widely- based in its origins (in the electromagnet spectrum), which is why it’s not helpful terminology to describe sex and I wouldn’t use it.

I also incidentally think it’s not helpful terminology when applied to other things- eg ASD:

Ok but I didn't ask if it had those implications, I asked if that is how it is usually used or if that's just your opinion.

For example, there's a spectrum of political opinion, that isn't simply linear.

There's a spectrum of gender identity, it isn't strictly limited to transmen-transwomen. Ask anyone with fae/fair pronouns or xe/xem. I'd actually love to see the pseudopsychosexual studies for the development of those gender identities to be quite honest.

You seem to be positioning your opinions as facts.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 20:35

IKeepMyToasterInTheCupboard · 22/07/2025 20:28

Just to change the subject can someone please start talking about their superior lemon drizzle cake recipe. Or 5000 things to do with a stick of celery, I don't care.

I'm not in the mood for another scolding from the thread police today so I'm avoiding anything that could be construed as random chat.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:35
Happy So Excited GIF

Gosh tomorrow is going to be exciting. <Happy sigh>

This is all very discombobulating. Here we have an appalling injustice suffered by Sandie, inflicted by an egotist and a supporting cast of idiot sycophants who should know better.
It’s outrageous hearing it play out.

However, here we also have…
Naomi Cunningham, JKR and a heap of witty women observers commentating in various dialects and swapping recipes to while away the moments in between shocking revelations of incompetence and bias.

Extravirginolive · 22/07/2025 20:35

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:30

I think that particular cat is immune to logical reasoning.

It's an interesting demonstration of the same fixated thinking that Searle has.

Searle has achieved worldwide press coverage of the mess her inability to understand another point of view has caused.

It's a major characteristic of "trans".

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 20:36

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:33

😂
Sounds like he was over-due a nap.

It did remind me of how many times in my life, especially as a young woman, when I've ducked into the ladies' to get away from a man who wouldn't leave me alone. For all the TRAs' harping that women's toilets don't contain anti-man force fields, none of them ever followed me in there and it communicated without a doubt that I was not playing games and absolutely did want them to go away.

INeedAPensieve · 22/07/2025 20:36

Jesus I have a v busy day at work, don't manage to log on at all then come back and now I am two and a half threads down!!! Argh!!!

Trying to read the TT summaries and the summaries online too. Sounds like Dr Kate did not disappoint with her batshit statements.

Lovaduck74 · 22/07/2025 20:38

Indeed she didn't....and more to come tomorrow!

littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 20:38

Read this and compare it to what the bammers at Fife health board on their site

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

tribunalObserver · 22/07/2025 20:39

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 20:33

When is this thing supposed to end? cos I honestly cant see fitting all these witnesses in by the end of the week..

The judge asked NC and JR to get together and agree a timetable that would have them finished with all witnesses by 4pm on Monday, iirr.

In fairness over several tribunals, it does seem that NC always seriously underestimates how much time she's going to need for cross-examination. I don't know what the implications for her of making more accurate estimates would be, but at this stage, "make an estimate and then double it" would be a decent start!

MyDogLikesKayaking · 22/07/2025 20:39

Have we seen a copy or the contents of the email that KS sent to the other 6 recipients? The one from 6 Jan I think? The one that none of them could remember or find for the Feb part? I looked at the ones Maya posted on X but they’re all dated December.

TWETMIRF · 22/07/2025 20:39

I'm multiple threads behind so posting here in the hope that I'll get to it before I go away.

I'm off to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks and would love to get some tablet while I'm there. As there are so many of you lovely Scots on the threads, can somewhere recommend a place to get some proper tablet that isn't extortionate tourist price for inferior product? I only really have 1 day there so don't have time to travel too far. Am staying in the Corstophine area if that helps

Ta muchly and I can't wait to find out what juicy revelations I've yet to catch up on

OnlyAWomansHeart · 22/07/2025 20:40

CinnamonCinnabar · 22/07/2025 19:24

Apologies if this has been asked already - are there any legally minded people here who can comment on the seriousness of Dr KS withholding emails from the tribunal and/or colluding with other people to conceal emails? Does contempt of court apply in tribunals?
I ask because if she is found to be unreliable in court I would think that seriously undermines her integrity as a consultant and possibly should be reported to the GMC.

This is a civil trial (not criminal) so while it’s a very serious allegation we don’t yet have evidence of it - ie deliberate lie or collusion.

What we should remember is that the evidential burden here is different - so they don’t need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt she is a liar - but rather on the balance of possiblities it’s likely she’s a liar. I’d say she met that theshold - as she says I can’t say - but you can’t prove. It’s a very odd response. And later in the exchange she’s asked surely 6 of you were in this trail - one person would have been able to provide it - and she says ‘I’m not a legal expert’ - but it’s not about the law it’s about email and plain on the face that 1 out of 6 people in an email trail should be able to find that email most likely in their sent items (unless all six independently deleted it from their inboxes and sent items and deleted items or indeed archives (I have done discovery).

NC It talks about the Ix, and how ED will be the investigator, it appears to be to set and coordinate a group of ppl who shldnt be talking to each other as witnesses. It talks about info not leaving the group and foot in mouth syndrome. it's serious isnt it?
KS I agree we shldnt have written these things in this group. I cant say whether it's been withheld. I dont think u can prove the emails were linked
NC These emails werent produced for the 1st hearings were they?
KS It appears not
NC There were 6 of you in this chain
NC & after DU added, so 6 of you cld have found this info?
KS I'm not a legal expert and cant say. Not all were involved throughout. I dont know who was involved when

What she says to the Judge is it’s a massive coincidence that all six delete / can’t find the most implicating email trail or there was collusion. And the witness I’ve asked about it has just said you can’t prove it. (She may yet prove it though). The inference is on balance it’s likely there was a cover up because the fact of six people carrying out the same action when the talk about how to hide information and keep foots out of mouths - the content is already acknowledging a level of complicity and stepping outwith bounds of propriety in the investigation.

What is then clever is NC asks later - did you tell DU to use the ladies changing room. KS says no, NC says but DU said you did in her evidence.

What NC just proved to the Judge is that under oath one of these people is lying.

So she’s allowing them to show us who they are.

The Judge cannot find contempt but can perhaps refer it to the High Court. The best thing that has happened is 1.4 million have seen some of KSs work in her emails. She is clearly biased, one sided and failed to follow the GMC code on patient reporting.

She should be referred and investigated and a grievance should be raised in NHS Fife for her undermining an investigation and colluding in it. If I was the legal rep there I would recommend that given that they have brought the Trust into disrepute. But you’ve seen the statement their legal signed off last week - so I wouldn’t expect much.

However if Sex Matters have the resources they should have a team raising issues with regulators for all these staff members. Like the RCN - everyone who ignores the rights of others to this extent and starts to lie or hide or collude - should be brought before justice to be dealt with.

We need precedents so that others who protect the rights of one group above all others will think twice.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:40

TWETMIRF · 22/07/2025 20:39

I'm multiple threads behind so posting here in the hope that I'll get to it before I go away.

I'm off to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks and would love to get some tablet while I'm there. As there are so many of you lovely Scots on the threads, can somewhere recommend a place to get some proper tablet that isn't extortionate tourist price for inferior product? I only really have 1 day there so don't have time to travel too far. Am staying in the Corstophine area if that helps

Ta muchly and I can't wait to find out what juicy revelations I've yet to catch up on

Ooh great post! My son is actually in Edinburgh, so some tips on what to buy and where would be greatly appreciated.

Nameychangington · 22/07/2025 20:40

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:12

Does Anyone know what this means btw?

facilitated reflective practice discussion would be appropriate.

That's Sandie's punishment for being found not guilty basically.

A reflective practice discussion is where you talk about something which happened and look at how you handled it and how you could have done it differently/better.

I had to do one after I had my formal grievance against my manager upheld (partially, on appeal - the NHS hates to admit how badly some managers fuck up with the zero training or support they get from higher up). Neither of us enjoyed that whatsoever. It seems odd to say the least to suggest it as an appropriate outcome for someone cleared of the changes against them.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 20:40

FallinUltra · 22/07/2025 16:17

The forensic phone/computer witness is called by the respondents.

Edited

So they persuaded Upton to hand over the phone in a last ditch attempt to find something worse than was lurking on their own server?

crazysnakess · 22/07/2025 20:41

Largesso · 22/07/2025 20:20

It was clear from today’s evidence that DU had discussed SP avoiding him in the cr prior to the Xmas encounter. KS emailed IB on Dec 8. She emailed asking for more info but this was odd as she claims to have settled the matter re f cr with DU in August. She then said she didn’t recall why she sent that email then and JR later asked if she might have already been aware of the two times DU had noted down SP removing herself from f cr.

I read into this that KS had been informed by KD that SP had raised concerns.

Which means that she had been primed to think of the Xmas conversation as an ‘escalation‘

I saw that - am I right in thinking that the conversation with IB was triggered by Upton complaining that SP wouldn't stay in the female changing room with him?

So not by a female member of staff complaining that there was a man in the female changing room, but by the man complaining that the women had noticed he was a man?

KTheGrey · 22/07/2025 20:42

moto748e · 22/07/2025 20:26

He was reminiscent of an actor playing a psychopath- obviously psychopaths aren’t actually like that!

So more Anthony Hopkins than Brian Blessed, then? 😀

I am thinking Domhnall Gleeson for DU in the movie.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:43

Nameychangington · 22/07/2025 20:40

That's Sandie's punishment for being found not guilty basically.

A reflective practice discussion is where you talk about something which happened and look at how you handled it and how you could have done it differently/better.

I had to do one after I had my formal grievance against my manager upheld (partially, on appeal - the NHS hates to admit how badly some managers fuck up with the zero training or support they get from higher up). Neither of us enjoyed that whatsoever. It seems odd to say the least to suggest it as an appropriate outcome for someone cleared of the changes against them.

Someone described it earlier, as ‘sit in that corner and have a good think about what you did that led us to persecute you.’

Victim blaming. You made us do it.

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 20:44

tribunalObserver · 22/07/2025 20:39

The judge asked NC and JR to get together and agree a timetable that would have them finished with all witnesses by 4pm on Monday, iirr.

In fairness over several tribunals, it does seem that NC always seriously underestimates how much time she's going to need for cross-examination. I don't know what the implications for her of making more accurate estimates would be, but at this stage, "make an estimate and then double it" would be a decent start!

I do think JR wasted some time today knowing it was gonna be bad and wanting to give NC less time with KS im not sure whether they can extend it cos i think most of tomo will be taken up with KS by the time NC has finished with her god knows how many redirect Q JR is gonna have to try and do damage control and they arent starting til 11.30 just would be interesting to know the intended timeline 🤔

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:44

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:35

Ok but I didn't ask if it had those implications, I asked if that is how it is usually used or if that's just your opinion.

For example, there's a spectrum of political opinion, that isn't simply linear.

There's a spectrum of gender identity, it isn't strictly limited to transmen-transwomen. Ask anyone with fae/fair pronouns or xe/xem. I'd actually love to see the pseudopsychosexual studies for the development of those gender identities to be quite honest.

You seem to be positioning your opinions as facts.

firstly, how words are understood is never a question of “fact” it’s a question of perspective. Secondly, In my initial post I expressed that this was a personal opinion/
preference against the term. Third, however I do think it’s one that’s widely shared because of the historical use of the word , so that if you say “sex is a spectrum” , an implication of continuous linearity is part of what people imagine and object to. That doesn’t mean that people dont sometimes use and interpret the word differently, of course, it’s just part of what I think many people often understand / imagine when they hear that word.

Needspaceforlego · 22/07/2025 20:44

Rhaidimiddim · 22/07/2025 20:27

If I were the judge, I'd have this on my Naughty List of recommendations.

They supposed to be professionals who can search their own emails....

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:44

Diluvelance.

IKeepMyToasterInTheCupboard · 22/07/2025 20:44
Youre Wrong The West Wing GIF

What I think reflective practice is

miffmufferedmoof · 22/07/2025 20:45

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 19:13

How strange. I'm still getting the previous one - from googling NHS Fife intersex. Oh well, that's good it's changed.

Apologies if someone has already said this (I'm struggling to keep up with the thread!), but possibly if you clear the cache on your web browser, you'll then get the updated version of the webpage

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