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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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ILikeDungs · 22/07/2025 18:47

Found a screenshot

Edited to say, I am well behind on page 8 so this may have been discussed, sorry

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37
Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:47

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 22/07/2025 18:45

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3le58k858o

This might have been posted already, but I am stunned at how the BBC are reporting this case. Anybody would be forgiven for thinking SP is the defendant, and they’ve very much buried the lede sticking “possible evidence tampering” way down at the bottom.

I'm really grateful for the relatively objective reporting.

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 18:47

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 18:30

Sorry about derailing the thread i tend to get emo with people who produce nonsensical articles about intersex possible proving sex is not binary it seems insane to me that my mum and dad saved for years incase we had to move cos someone found out about my sister and now we have every tom dick and harry using her condition as reasoning why they should be able to carry out their paraphilias in public and that we all should just ‘be kind’ i dont feel very much like being kind when things like the SP case are happening and knowing they managed to do a lot of this on the back of intersex exists therefore i dont have a paraphilia and this is not sexual i am really a woman!!

But now it's also doctors effectively saying that they don't know if they have a DSD, and the NHS Fife website defining intersex as having both male and female sex organs.

It's thoughtless, insensitive and unserious.

OnlyAWomansHeart · 22/07/2025 18:49

If any of it was true you wouldn’t have to get your knickers/ boxers/ gender neutral pants in a twist about it all.

Sex is binary because the men want to become trans women and the women want to become transmen. They don’t want to become a trans difference of sex development individual. You know because it’s not a spectrum. It’s binary with some genetic differences that prove the rule.

You did well though today - not too many interruptions. Probably took a lot of energy to follow the actual facts of the case. That’s what we’re here for - those facts mostly.

viques · 22/07/2025 18:50

ILikeDungs · 22/07/2025 18:42

The page has changed today though, the one I read this morning said intersex was a gender identity, I'm sure of it

Do keep up! No, honestly, do keep up. Apparently when you have read through all the Fife threads , and answered a short quiz, you will be eligible for one of the soon to be vacant posts in the Victoria Hospital. The really exciting news is that you will be able to choose whether to specialise in HR , gynaecology or gender reassignment surgery.

Annoyedone · 22/07/2025 18:51

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:36

That's not exactly how I would have put that, but sort of.

A better way to phrase it would be:

People observed male at birth genetically disposed to being less male than other birth males are more prone to experiencing unhappiness with societal expectations of living within a male-sex role than other birth males.

Edited

How can someone be less or more male than another person? How is this measured without resorting to outdated sexist stereotypes? And it doesn’t matter how make sober feels, they’ll never be a woman and they’re not allowed in women’s spaces. HTH 😀

BlakeCarrington · 22/07/2025 18:52

Thanks Nauticant for the splendid thread management and to all the wims on the thread for the commentary. I am losing hours of productive work time but don’t care. I ❤️ NC. Love from a lurker 👀

Mollyollydolly · 22/07/2025 18:53

Is it possible to mute a particular poster in a thread?

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 22/07/2025 18:54

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:47

I'm really grateful for the relatively objective reporting.

You’re a fool if you think this is good reporting. Even if diametrically opposed to everything SP stands for, even you must see that “possible tampering of evidence by senior professionals in roles that require honesty and integrity” is lower on the list than “ crying and hurt feelings, and a brief consideration of calling the police”.

Even if you don’t care for her, care about yourself. What kind of precedent does it set if the public don’t scrutinise these people, in case what they find doesn’t fit their narrative.

Strike a sodding light!

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 18:55

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 18:47

But now it's also doctors effectively saying that they don't know if they have a DSD, and the NHS Fife website defining intersex as having both male and female sex organs.

It's thoughtless, insensitive and unserious.

Im so bloody grateful my sister wasnt born today i mean my mum and dad went through their own hell with it but at least doctors back then were straight up and down about it ‘your daughter has this condition, this is how serious it is, this is how we treat it’ can you imagine being born today with a intersex condition with doctors being so willing to throw everything they know under the bus for the ideology getting a straight answer out of them must be a nightmare and for the child being told its an identity my god.. its terrifying honestly.. that why we have to speak up now before its too late, i cant imagine the damage this is doing on a medical level to people.
I am so grateful to people like SP bringing this all into the light even if it only makes one doc or nurse rethink the way they practice medicine it is worth it!!

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:55

Annoyedone · 22/07/2025 18:51

How can someone be less or more male than another person? How is this measured without resorting to outdated sexist stereotypes? And it doesn’t matter how make sober feels, they’ll never be a woman and they’re not allowed in women’s spaces. HTH 😀

We were discussing the biological complexity of sex development (in the context of the Doctor's testimony at the tribunal) - nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 18:55

Needspaceforlego · 22/07/2025 18:41

Im only at, 5.10 of this thread but thought I'd ask, so forgive me if it's been asked.

Does anyone else think the BMA might be re-thinking their Trans policy as this is making Doctors look stupid, and cause people to loose faith in the medical profession?

You'd hope so, given several highly qualified medical professionals have made themselves look ridiculous in front of a Tribunal, parroting mantras they must know are nonsense.

It sounds that BMC (like NHS Fife) are completely captured and there will be some high heid yins who aren't going to give up without a fight.

I often wonder why. Is it true believers pushing this? Or is it the embarrassment at having to climb down and change
policies etc? They'd be far better saying 'we were badly advised by Stonewall et al and we'll comply with the law going forward' but there seems to be a sort of arrogance in that they can't admit they were wrong.

Somewhat tangential but it's making me think of Semmelweiss, the doctor who suggested that women were dying of postnatal puerperal fever because doctor's weren't washing their hands between touching corpses and touching women in labour. He was ostracised and eventually committed to an asylum by his colleagues. He was right of course and part of the argument by doctors was that they were gentlemen and he was mortifying their good name to suggest they should be obliged to wash their hands.

I think there's an aspect of that to this case. These doctors can't bear for those they perceive to be lower on the totem pole than them to point out the flaws in their thinking.

ThatsALeafJean · 22/07/2025 18:56

Mollyollydolly · 22/07/2025 18:53

Is it possible to mute a particular poster in a thread?

Also what I’ve been wondering / looking at this evening!

Annoyedone · 22/07/2025 18:56

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:55

We were discussing the biological complexity of sex development (in the context of the Doctor's testimony at the tribunal) - nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

But can you explain how someone can be more male than another male? Either you are male or you are not. Please done tell me you’re dragging people with DSD into your arguments again.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:57

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 18:55

You'd hope so, given several highly qualified medical professionals have made themselves look ridiculous in front of a Tribunal, parroting mantras they must know are nonsense.

It sounds that BMC (like NHS Fife) are completely captured and there will be some high heid yins who aren't going to give up without a fight.

I often wonder why. Is it true believers pushing this? Or is it the embarrassment at having to climb down and change
policies etc? They'd be far better saying 'we were badly advised by Stonewall et al and we'll comply with the law going forward' but there seems to be a sort of arrogance in that they can't admit they were wrong.

Somewhat tangential but it's making me think of Semmelweiss, the doctor who suggested that women were dying of postnatal puerperal fever because doctor's weren't washing their hands between touching corpses and touching women in labour. He was ostracised and eventually committed to an asylum by his colleagues. He was right of course and part of the argument by doctors was that they were gentlemen and he was mortifying their good name to suggest they should be obliged to wash their hands.

I think there's an aspect of that to this case. These doctors can't bear for those they perceive to be lower on the totem pole than them to point out the flaws in their thinking.

it's funny how all the medical practitioners are 'captured' isn't it? It's almost like it might be good science and medicine....

TerrierCollector · 22/07/2025 18:57

ThatsALeafJean · 22/07/2025 18:56

Also what I’ve been wondering / looking at this evening!

Maybe if we all just ignore them…

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 18:57

ILikeDungs · 22/07/2025 18:42

The page has changed today though, the one I read this morning said intersex was a gender identity, I'm sure of it

It still does? The one I'm looking at does, anyway.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:58

Annoyedone · 22/07/2025 18:56

But can you explain how someone can be more male than another male? Either you are male or you are not. Please done tell me you’re dragging people with DSD into your arguments again.

If you are interested in the context of that post I suggest you read the thread. (especially when I am repeatedly accused of derailing!) Actually what I would like to do is contribute to the discussion.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 18:59

ILikeDungs · 22/07/2025 18:42

The page has changed today though, the one I read this morning said intersex was a gender identity, I'm sure of it

There was a fair amount of conjecture on Twitter today regarding that page and whether it would have been hastily amended by the end of today. Obviously, it has been, which is amusing.

CatOnAHotRadiator · 22/07/2025 19:00

Regardless the number of long words any poster uses to try and justify their reasoning why sex is a spectrum it boils down to the fact that if there weren’t only two sexes that were bloody easy to identify at barely a casual glance, our species would have died off ages ago. Females and males are needed to produce offspring. There is no middle ground.

And a disorder in sex development doesn’t change that.

crazysnakess · 22/07/2025 19:00

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:57

it's funny how all the medical practitioners are 'captured' isn't it? It's almost like it might be good science and medicine....

Fortunately, 'almost' means it's not.

HTH.

SternlyMatthews · 22/07/2025 19:01

ILikeDungs · 22/07/2025 18:42

The page has changed today though, the one I read this morning said intersex was a gender identity, I'm sure of it

The sentence about intersex being a gender identity has been shot down.
Heres the archive version, 19th July
https://archive.is/Ns0IN

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 19:01

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 18:59

There was a fair amount of conjecture on Twitter today regarding that page and whether it would have been hastily amended by the end of today. Obviously, it has been, which is amusing.

It hasn't.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37
Tandora · 22/07/2025 19:03

CatOnAHotRadiator · 22/07/2025 19:00

Regardless the number of long words any poster uses to try and justify their reasoning why sex is a spectrum it boils down to the fact that if there weren’t only two sexes that were bloody easy to identify at barely a casual glance, our species would have died off ages ago. Females and males are needed to produce offspring. There is no middle ground.

And a disorder in sex development doesn’t change that.

I didn't say that 'sex was a spectrum' - to me spectrum implies linearity. But sex is complex and multidimensional - we can't just point to one thing and say 'this defines sex' - which is what the Doctors in this tribunal are trying to explain.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/07/2025 19:03

Cailleach1 · 22/07/2025 17:24

Also, on the insistence of being trustworthy because she’s a doctor.

Here are ‘The Blizzards’ with ‘Trust me, I’m a doctor’.

Now my dear, trust that nice Dr Shipman. He’s bound to do no harm, it’s in his professional ethics.

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