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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
Theswiveleyeballsinthesky · 22/07/2025 17:49

eatfigs · 22/07/2025 17:31

What's this got to do with males demanding to use the female changing rooms?

Absolutely nothing but it's standard tandora tactics

we've been through it all many many many many many times before

ClawedButler · 22/07/2025 17:49

I'm surprised the BBC didn't go with, "Mixed-race medic too scared to give evidence against 'racist' nurse"

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 17:50

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:36

That's not exactly how I would have put that, but sort of.

A better way to phrase it would be:

People observed male at birth genetically disposed to being less male than other birth males are more prone to experiencing unhappiness with societal expectations of living within a male-sex role than other birth males.

Edited

Please skip this post for those who don't want theory distractions, but I think important to show to lurking TRAs that we do engage with these conversations. I'm not any sort of expert except being good at spotting logical flaws in arguments.

From a logical perspective that is perfectly consistent with views that one fundamental issue is sexism within society from an early age - i.e. also women who are into less womanly pursuits may be more likely to be viewed externally as less womanly. And develop a distressing dysphoria that they aren't a woman.

One way to test this hypothesis and I don't know if anyone has, is to separate physical and psychological aspects of sexism and see how far those who display psychological aspects grow up with dysphoria or not, along with self reports of sexism etc.

For example, like many in my family I was talented in the maths and sciences and was subject to sexism i.e. girls aren't good at maths, girl brains are different to boy brains and boy brains are good at maths. I also enjoyed playing cricket, mainly with boys. This led me to feel like I had in some sense a male brain. Utterly silly and I grew out of it.

What is womanly is utterly different over time. Computer science used to be dominated by women, including some of my female maths family because accounting, another employer of maths graduates, was more sexist towards women. It is just anecdotal but it concerns me that the few FtM I know work in computing.

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 17:51

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:05

Would you not agree DSD's are a completely different issue from claiming to be transgender?

No I would not agree with this. The two issues are fundamentally interrelated, because arguments about transness (both political and scientific) rest on understandings/ definitions of sex.

are you claiming Dr Upton & other trans identified people have DSD's?

I'm claiming that transness almost certainly has a biological underpinning tied to broader processes of sexual development. It's actually facile to assume otherwise.

No I would not agree with this. The two issues are fundamentally interrelated, because arguments about transness (both political and scientific) rest on understandings/ definitions of sex.

Trans is solely about gender identity. As they tell us all the time. Not sex.

I'm claiming that transness almost certainly has a biological underpinning tied to broader processes of sexual development. It's actually facile to assume otherwise.

There is zero evidence that trans has any biological underpinning. Misogyny and social contagion has no more 'biological underpinning' than anorexia or schizophrenia does.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:51

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 17:45

this includes the brain, which is the locus of psychosexual development.

But unfortunately I can't prevent pregnancy with my brain. Can't feed a baby with my brain. Can't prevent sex related cancer with my brain. Can't prevent a miscarriage with my brain.

I really can't underline enough how little my experience of sex has been related to my brain.

Hmm. I would say that the brain is a very important part of preventing pregnancy and feeding a baby. You'd really struggle to do either without cognition. 😂There's also a role for cognition and behaviour in preventing cancer and miscarriage, although of course these things can occur entirely outside of any role for the brain.

TerrierCollector · 22/07/2025 17:52

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 17:51

No I would not agree with this. The two issues are fundamentally interrelated, because arguments about transness (both political and scientific) rest on understandings/ definitions of sex.

Trans is solely about gender identity. As they tell us all the time. Not sex.

I'm claiming that transness almost certainly has a biological underpinning tied to broader processes of sexual development. It's actually facile to assume otherwise.

There is zero evidence that trans has any biological underpinning. Misogyny and social contagion has no more 'biological underpinning' than anorexia or schizophrenia does.

And even if it did have a biological basis, it wouldn't change the fact that some people have male bodies and some have female bodies, or that those with female bodies are generally more physically vulnerable. So, I fail to see how it's relevant.

MarieDeGournay · 22/07/2025 17:53

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:00

There is a relationship between polygenic sex-hormone signalling complexes, androgen imprinting and psychosexual development. It's facile to assume otherwise. E.g. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/390/5104458

All the subjects were the same sex, i.e. male. Before drawing any firm conclusions, shouldn't the researchers test for the same thing in the other half of the population? Or is it facile to assume otherwise, because men are the default human subject?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/07/2025 17:53

BaronMunchausen · 22/07/2025 16:35

"Beth has every right to use the facilities she wants under the GRA."

Was Searle implying that Upton has a GRC?

He’s already said he hadn’t I thought.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:54

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 17:51

No I would not agree with this. The two issues are fundamentally interrelated, because arguments about transness (both political and scientific) rest on understandings/ definitions of sex.

Trans is solely about gender identity. As they tell us all the time. Not sex.

I'm claiming that transness almost certainly has a biological underpinning tied to broader processes of sexual development. It's actually facile to assume otherwise.

There is zero evidence that trans has any biological underpinning. Misogyny and social contagion has no more 'biological underpinning' than anorexia or schizophrenia does.

transness has nothing to do with misogyny or social contagion. These are transphobic tropes.

There's a tonne of evidence on how sex hormones operate on the structure and function of the brain and influence cognition. Think about it - why wouldn't they? The brain is a physical structure that is part of the body.

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 17:54

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 16:53

my sister is intersex she was correctly sexed within hours of birth and this was seen as necessary to then help with a treatment plan, you cannot treat someone with a medical condition without knowing what sex they are because their sex determines treatment.
intersex does not exist to prop up trans ideology it is a medical condition and yes every single person who is intersex is male or female and if the doctors know your baby may be intersex they try to sex them even before they are born to give parents time to get their head around it and to help them understand plans for treatment.

Unfortunately those like Tandora don't care who they insult, offend or hurt. As long as they can use people to advocate their hateful agenda. It's a level of evil I've never seen before. It's sick and evil. Innocent people are expendable to them.

BezMills · 22/07/2025 17:54

I'm riveted for the second hour of cross examination of KS.

ItsCoolForCats · 22/07/2025 17:55

Justabaker · 22/07/2025 17:45

Respondents.

Interesting. I assumed it was the claimant to prove that there had been a discrepancy with the email disclosures.

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 17:55

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 16:53

my sister is intersex she was correctly sexed within hours of birth and this was seen as necessary to then help with a treatment plan, you cannot treat someone with a medical condition without knowing what sex they are because their sex determines treatment.
intersex does not exist to prop up trans ideology it is a medical condition and yes every single person who is intersex is male or female and if the doctors know your baby may be intersex they try to sex them even before they are born to give parents time to get their head around it and to help them understand plans for treatment.

Unfortunately those like Tandora don't care who they insult, offend or hurt. As long as they can use people to advocate their hateful agenda. It's a level of evil I've never seen before. It's sick and evil. Innocent people are expendable to them.

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 17:58

Oh dear tried to respond in good faith with TRA and am a transphobic trope. Nice alliteration at least.

Need to do some housework anyhow and mull going to my allotment and pick some overgrown courgettes / marrows.

Vague recollection there was a courgette fritters recipe on a previous iteration.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 17:59

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:32

Your sister's experience is valid, no one is saying otherwise.

At the same time we must be allowed to talk about the fact sex is a complex, multidimensional variable of development, with a whole range of rare but complex variations, without provoking rage and disgust, because these are scientific realities which affect people's lives.

Our understanding of sex development has advanced, and continues to advance with new scientific technologies. However, around 70% of DSDs that result in variations in gonadal development remain unexplained. Sex hormones (underpinned by complex networks of genes) operate systemically across the body and affect sex development - this includes the brain, which is the locus of psychosexual development.

No.

We don't have to talk about how sex is multi dimensional. It's not.

It's not fucking Dr Who.

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 17:59

Thats the headline?! Omg 🤦‍♀️

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 18:00

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:51

Hmm. I would say that the brain is a very important part of preventing pregnancy and feeding a baby. You'd really struggle to do either without cognition. 😂There's also a role for cognition and behaviour in preventing cancer and miscarriage, although of course these things can occur entirely outside of any role for the brain.

The ability to do the things you describe - planning, problem solving - is linked to being human, not male or female or masculine or feminine.

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 18:00

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 17:59

No.

We don't have to talk about how sex is multi dimensional. It's not.

It's not fucking Dr Who.

😂😂😂

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 18:00

More ghoulishness to appropriate other people's experiences to valid their own beliefs.

SamiSnail · 22/07/2025 18:00

Tandora · 22/07/2025 17:10

How very odd to take objection to referencing the most up to date scientific research. On any other topic that would be considered essential.

You have not referenced any actual scientific research. What you have done is use vulnerable people with a medical anomaly for your hateful agenda. It's beneath contempt. And if you had any, and I mean any, conscience at all, you wouldn't do it.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 18:00

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 17:58

Oh dear tried to respond in good faith with TRA and am a transphobic trope. Nice alliteration at least.

Need to do some housework anyhow and mull going to my allotment and pick some overgrown courgettes / marrows.

Vague recollection there was a courgette fritters recipe on a previous iteration.

I didn't say you were a transphobic trope (what would that mean?) I said that reducing transness to misogyny and social contagion was a transphobic trope.

Need to do some housework anyhow and mull going to my allotment and pick some overgrown courgettes / marrows

Sounds like a lovely way to spend the evening. I'm very jealous you have an allotment :).

RocketPanda · 22/07/2025 18:00

Bunch of cute hoors, all of them involved in that email.

Btw in my house it's The Shiteus Touch, when everything you touch turns to shit.

Gymnopedie · 22/07/2025 18:02

Ah, after much head scratching they've finally found a way to spin it. What KS said in response to JR is described in great detail, all DU's upset and 'snot fair, what she said to NC is given a small paragraph at the end and focuses only on her denials of wrongdoing.

I should never have doubted the BBC's ability to make (to their satisfaction) a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

possomblossom · 22/07/2025 18:03

🤣😂 Merde-us Touch
Shiteus Touch 😂🤣
Marvellous!

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