NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

This of course is what all these doctors have been subjected to. “It’s facile” to know that sex is binary with endless ramblings all ignoring the core fact - that only women gestate and birth babies - now and for all time.
Yet delusional academics have gaslit children and young adults for years now with conspiracy theories about sex change and dire warnings about how transphobic and hateful it is to understand facts and science.
With the result that doctors like this beclown themselves in the witness box. And women and children remain compelled to undress in front of any male who claims to be part of this sacred caste.

I remain incredibly sad that society has failed to challenge this and allowed the serial gaslighting of generations. As we’re seeing played out in front of us all.

The Tribunal Tweets web pages probably provide a more coherent & focused narrative than the wide ranging discussions here if you want to get up to speed on the background to this story.

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6

What's this got to do with males demanding to use the female changing rooms?

Aww ive just seen that, was that pic from today?

Your sister's experience is valid, no one is saying otherwise.

At the same time we must be allowed to talk about the fact sex is a complex, multidimensional variable of development, with a whole range of rare but complex variations, without provoking rage and disgust, because these are scientific realities which affect people's lives.

Our understanding of sex development has advanced, and continues to advance with new scientific technologies. However, around 70% of DSDs that result in variations in gonadal development remain unexplained. Sex hormones (underpinned by complex networks of genes) operate systemically across the body and affect sex development - this includes the brain, which is the locus of psychosexual development.

It's quite something. It was as if Sandie wasn't even considered to be a human being let alone a woman. The little value placed on a nurse by these arrogant professionals. I hope NC wipes the floor woth them.

Self exclusion should be seen as principled, not punitive

which is fine until you find yourself working in an environment where principles play second, third or even fourth fiddle to feelings, tears and uncontrollable sobbing.

I think so, because I have a memory of him staring down the camera as he said it (for newcomers, the hearing was remote and done entirely online).

I was thinking of Tom Wainwright as being tricky (and either said or was on the verge of saying something was all bullshit), but Leslie Thomas fits the bill too @ItisntOver . And who can forget the chief clerk and his open mike oopsie “faaacking hell” as he got up from the table after his evidence.

PS after DH introduced me to the delights of TMS I am fully on board with the wandering conversation and can skip through the bits I don’t have time to read*. However, I’d really rather we didn’t have another circular conversation with Tandora on these threads - we’re never going to agree on the science and this case is all about the law and how Sandie Peggie was treated. Not relitigating FWS or revisiting the same old arguments.

*celery is the work of the devil, DH didn’t believe the strength of my dislike and sneaked a couple of pieces into a salad he made for me and was surprised at my “THERES CELERY IN THIS!” on my first mouthful. (He likes celery and olives and gherkins, I like tomatoes and beetroot. No communal salad bowl in this house).

That's not exactly how I would have put that, but sort of.

A better way to phrase it would be:

People observed male at birth genetically disposed to being less male than other birth males are more prone to experiencing unhappiness with societal expectations of living within a male-sex role than other birth males.

I wonder what Fife SLTs assessment of this risk is now?

If i recall Fife NHS allow observers to attend some of their Board meetings, the next one should be an absolute cracker.

You are saying that the state of being trans in is linked to specific symptoms that can be tested.

So, following your argument, people who don't have these symptoms are only pretending to be trans.

Alternatively, my view would be that there are many reasons why somebody may identify as trans.

1. Celery is the vegetable of the devil. He invented it when he was drinking water and thought, "Hey, what if this was like hard pond water and had hair in it?"
2. I call the thing where where everything you touch turns to sh1t 'The Merde-as Touch'
3. Upton reports 'not engaging' as a terrible crime committed by SP, yet also reports 'engaging' as a terrible crime committed by SP

You mean we would have to determine who was biologically trans, and who was trans for 'other reasons'?

Why would that be morally objectionable? Isn't that exactly how you want to gatekeep the protected characteristic of sex?

It's ok to distinguish between who's really a woman and who's pretending to be a woman, but it's not ok to distinguish between who is really trans and who is pretending to be trans?

You can't be more or less male.

You either are male or you are not.

Are you suggesting that some men are lesser than others by virtue of the sort of things they like to do?

Oh dear. Disappointing to see that the Courier has totally missed the point (and the joke) about the "do you know what sex you are?" question.

"Ms Cunningham also asked Dr Searle about whether she knows she is a woman after equalities lead Isla Bumba suggested someone could only know their sex by testing their chromosomes.
Dr Searle stated that she is a woman and that those delivering a baby determine its sex at birth."

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5294588/fife-doctor-sandie-peggie-hate-incident/

I think there'd be a lot of outraged transpeople if you suggested that to them.

And even if they were genuinely trans, they wouldn't have changed sex, so what difference would it make?

Do we know what side has called computer expert as witness?

You are talking about variations within the sex binary.

I think you need to step back and think about why we define sex.

Basically, whether you are talking about a human baby, a puppy, a calf or a holly busy, it's because you need to know how they will reproduce. The clue is in the name. We are talking about sexual reproduction.

There is nothing complex about sex. You're either male or female. And a blood test shows which.

this includes the brain, which is the locus of psychosexual development.

But unfortunately I can't prevent pregnancy with my brain. Can't feed a baby with my brain. Can't prevent sex related cancer with my brain. Can't prevent a miscarriage with my brain.

I really can't underline enough how little my experience of sex has been related to my brain.

Respondents.

My sister doesnt have an experience she has a medical condition and it isnt valid it just is, and my sisters condition doesnt change the fact that sex is and always will be binary and we know this because every human being that has ever been born has been from a female egg and a male sperm there has never been even one deviation from this!
if my sisters condition changed that we would be able to point at examples where this isnt the case but we cant if my sister wanted children she would be the one carrying the child and would need a man to help make that child proving the binary even when she is intersex!!

She didn't need long to poke holes though 😂😂😂

Not sure about public attendance but minutes can be accessed here -

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/nhs-fife-board/committees-and-groups/

They've dealt with that little problem very neatly. There isn't one. Because there is no report from today's hearings.

Surprisingly even they've worked out that there is no way to spin the proceedings in DU's favour.