NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

I’ve been at work all day and am trying to catch up but no way can I read everything.

can someone please tell me what KS was talking about when she told the barrister that she can’t prove it? Because that sounds very interesting.
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Unless you are arguing that there should be a way of gatekeeping whether somebody should benefit from the PC of gender reassignment, it's not clear how this is relevant.

An "undermasculinized" man is still a man.

Unfortunately it’s not a quiet news day in Scotland. The Tall ships and preparations for Trump are dominating the news here

None of those things define sex, and the evidence you cited specifically says they impact on the development of gender dysphoria, not gender. The difficulty is that nobody's disputing how someone might feel. It's whether that feeling constitutes scientific fact, or justifies forcing someone else to be uncomfortable. The same goes for the "biological" argument; does artificial alteration of your hormonal axes mean you can literally change your biological sex? Of course not. There are processes which take place in a female body which will never be emulated by a male one on oestrogen, and ones that take place in a male body which will never be emulated by a female one on testosterone. But I've come across so much stuff that suggests that a body just switches to being female with he magic ingredient of oestrogen. THAT is facile.

None of that means that someone who wants to present a certain way is less human, or less entitled to kindness. What the issue centres around is the trumping of trans rights over that of anyone else's. And, potentially, the lie that someone's gender dysphoria would just go away if everyone else could treat them the way they want them to. It's a really dangerous message.

She started off nervously under Jane Russell's questioning, but soon became more comfortable. There were still some uncomfortable moments for her. When Naomi Cunningham started cross examination, she soon became very uncomfortable indeed, and frequently struggled to get an answer out, um-ing and er-ing (or possibly erring). On several occasions she very grudgingly conceded the answer that NC was angling for.

At times she showed a touch of "consultants' arrogance", such as "you can't prove it" and indicated that she must be entirely trustworthy as she's a doctor, so must therefore follow GMC standards fully, like all other doctors do.

I am however entirely sure I am a woman, having sung along to Shania Twain's "Man I feel like a woman" on many occasions.

Pah! That proves nothing! I'm sure Dr. Upton has done that many times.

Seriously?? Has MN read MN??!

Sweeping negative generalisations are all over the place! Older people, disabled people, benefit claimants, foreigners, Jewish people.... need i go on?

That said, Maggie Chapman's made the front page

I go away for 3 hours and a thread and a half whizz by.

Am I right in saying that Naomi Cunningham didn't actually get as far as the content of those ghastly emails from KS and ask her to explain them?

👀
almost certainly struggling under the weight of lifting all your claims there, Tandora
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I am struggling to work out which bit is a negative generalisation. Ill PM you.

Well as someone who has lived this life and talked to doctors and consultants personally and have asked about newer obscure articles this is not the most up to date scientific research and they too tend to find the intersex proves the trans argument narrative kinda gross the fact my sister exists doesnt call into question male and female just that my sister was born with a rare condition within the binary of sex!

Perhaps but we can't ask as that as it would be deeply offensive, possibly even a hate incident. We will never known precisely what Dr. Upton's woman feelings are or how they are expressed. That we are even considering it is evidence that we are old women bigots, stuck in the 1990s.

So very odd to insist that the existence of observations that cannot be categorised easily within a strictly binary framework are somehow actually evidence that the variable is strictly binary. Bonkers some of the topsy turvy reasoning on these threads🙃

You're getting confused between a binary system, and phenotypes which can come in a range of physical manifestations that can present in different ways. In fact, everyone including those with DSDs is male or female, but there can of course be more than just two varieties of physical appearance.

That doesn't change the fact that sex itself is binary - it is a system that requires two cells to combine to make a zygote / fertilised cell. There are only two types of cells that can do this and it requires one of each.

Even if a individual animal like a snail is both sexes at once, the sex binary system (sperm must join with egg) remains binary.

The binary sex reproduction system has evolved to aid healthy reproduction. It doesn't give a shit what "identity" someone has or that someone may have atypical features.

Lastly, even if there was such a thing as a person who is neither female nor male, or both, or "cannot be categorised easily within a strictly binary framework" - so what? Why would that imply you can "be" something you're not just by saying so? I'm female. Does the existence of people who may appear ambiguously sexed/have a DSD mean I can decide I'm not female and that becomes true? No. If I say I'm a man, or say I have a DSD when I don't, that's simply appropriating someone else's lived experience.

Lots of things are not a binary - height, age, ethnicity, disability. There's nothing about something being a spectrum or not binary, that means it makes any sense to identify as somewhere on the spectrum that you are demonstrably not.

ETA: 🙃

Someone upthread mentioned that JR/J didn’t jump in at any stage during NC questioning like they did with ED. I think the J said something about not pushing questioning to ED about sex and possible medical implications with (paraphrasing) ‘She’s (just?) a nurse’. No jumping in today at KS reluctance/feigned murmurings about sex, and waffle into ‘assigned’ etc. and say ‘she’s (just) a hospital Consultant’.

On the arrogant into shy, could sly be a better explanation?

I wonder why KS thinks the GRA is applicable to people who don't have a GRC.

So KS says she believes Upton and that Upton wouldn’t lie because of the GMC? So is she suggesting that she believes Upton over Sandie and that Sandie is lying? Because Sandie is bound by the NMC to be trustworthy and professional. 🤷‍♀️. So surely the same holds true for her?

"She alleged that another incident involved a patient in a suspected mental health crisis leaving, and said that when Dr Upton went to look for Ms Peggie, the nurse “would only speak to her through another member of nursing staff”, the tribunal heard.
Dr Searle said: “That would make me somewhat concerned for patient safety; in our team we need to communicate very well between ourselves to ensure patient safety.”
She said she had spoken to the healthcare worker, and added: “I asked if she recalled the situation and she was concerned about getting involved in any discussions about the incident because she said ‘I am mixed race and I am worried about getting involved in this for my own safety’.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/national/25332734.consultant-believed-dispute-female-changing-rooms-was-hate-incident/

As an observer I don't recall (!) hearing that the missing patient had a mental health crisis. I accept KS may have said this. But the entire story feels like one we haven't heard before, or not heard in this form.

What do you mean by this? 'Gatekeeping whether somebody should benefit from the PC of gender reassignment'?

Also, on the insistence of being trustworthy because she’s a doctor.

Here are ‘The Blizzards’ with ‘Trust me, I’m a doctor’.

@@AmaryllisNightAndDay and others, has NC been using "he/him" to refer to DU?
Thanks for all the updates, been dipping in and out around work.

Yes, this was discussed and permitted at the beginning of the tribunal.

DU said KS "instructed" him to use the F CR, KS says she asked him how he wanted to handle the situ. Also I believe she refused to back up other details of the convos she had with him, but NC didn't go into detail ( ot at least detail that I could follow on TT's thread).

The thread on X continuing from Boswell's summary of this afternoon has a couple of photos taken of Sandie (and daughter arm in arm) and Kate leaving the tribunal taken by an NUJ photographer (so presumably they might turn up in the press).

It good to see Sandie and her daughter smiling.

In other words, men genetically disposed to being less masculine than other men are more prone to experiencing unhappiness with societal expectations of masculinity than other men?