NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

Can I ask what the status of the patient incidents is now? What effect has the Ix result had on them?

From TT

JR [reading re comparison w rapist in prison] DU's contemp records says [reads "it's just like that person in the prisons"] In Datix is an illusion about being similar to a rapist. Why write this and not the actual words?
(KS) She perceived as an insult to T person as compared to a rapist. She felt it was a reference to that.
(JR?) So why interp as offensive or harassing phrase in the Datix
JR Whats harrassing or offensive about it
KS To be compared as a T IDed M to being like a rapist is extremely extremely offensive

Fifer : aye for shaire it's pretty ticht sometimes when ye get lumped in wi a' the bad anes. I micht hae choried a curly wurly fae the wee shop n that (ay there wis that BMX but ah deh like tae talk aboot it, wheesht), but ahm basically a soond *. Ah deh really enjoy being classed in the same risk category as rapists n that, but there ye go. Ah mean it is lik that, it is hoo it is.

JR Re earlier incidents?
KS Refers to 2 prev incidents I mentioned earlier where nurse hadnt responded in a work comms situation as expected. As opposed to non clinical communication that has nothing to do w patients
JR What were the motivating factors in HI. Why was GR felt a motivating factor?
KS By the Qs asked re chromosomes, why are u in the CR. Felt was the motivation for this interaction. No other reason for approaching her and makes it a HI under the policy. As is a PC in the policy

Fifer : "nae other reason" - wis there no, aye? Ah'll expect NC follaes up wi that later.

JR what action did u take then
KS Referal to occ health, ensured support outside work and looked at shift patterns to ensure no crossover until further Ix undertaken. Informed my consultant colleagues as we have joint responsiblity. And cldnt guarantee a mtg due to Xmas
KS SO we cld all support Beth if she felt unable to work or if she needed any support.
JR Can u estimate how many colleagues 19 at that time
JR Can you read "Beth was approached" Why say this?
KS Beth perceived active confrontation, was aggressive in manner

Fifer : Wee Sondie no kent for messing aroond tae be fair. Ye're boond tae get thon wey eftir 30 year o dealin wi A&E doon teh Vic. Can ye imagine? Worse than kickin oot time at Jackie O's. Ah mind one night ah got tae the hoose and a couldnae tell if it wis kebab sauce or blood doon ma shirt. Bit ae baith.

JR why did u say this [new page]?
KS We always support a jr dr in distress and condemn any actions against anyone defined as abusive or harassment. Patient or colleague.
JR Describe yr reporting of events? How did u do
KS Thought doing the best for her safety
KS Had no reason to think it wasnt true so reported what I believed was true.
JR U felt it was important for yr collegaues to know Why? We are a close team and anything that threatens wellbeing of staff. And have to think of serice rota and make sure it is covered. If someone

Fifer : Dr-neebors stick the gither. Cannae let thae nurses push us aroon. That wid nivir dae.

Wait if she was doing it because these consultants would be supporting DR U as part of procedure then why did she need his permission to do it? Isnt that what she said in her emails??

Oh dear. She had no reason to disbelieve anything Upton told her because he's bound by the GMC code of conduct. Doctors have to be truthful and act with integrity.

Well that didn't quite work out for you did it Kate...

‘I reported what I BELIEVED to be true’ because obviously the vulnerable, marginalised DU was telling the truth, why would anyone bother to talk to the lowly nurse who has an unblemished 30 year career? KS is indeed a believer.

The whole thing involves a huge ego problem. I am right, you are wrong, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Celery soup yuck. Also it occurs to me another advantage of comparing trans"phobia" to racism is it's a way of attempting to get ethnic minorities on their side. By saying it's like USA segregated loos etc. etc. and the same sort of bigot who is transphobic is a bigot about race. Using the fact that supposedly TERFs are older and white women your classic apparent bigot.

KS No other reason for approaching her and makes it a HI under the policy. As is a PC in the policy

I'm way behind with the TT, but wanted to not this: wrong on both counts, the other reason was that DU is in many peoples opinion a man, and he didn't have PC status.

So not a clear HI at all.

Out of interest, isn't Sandie bound by a similar thing? I don't know but would assume so. So why is his more important?

Oh, wait....

I imagine Harold Shipman was bound by the GMC code of conduct, too. Hmmm...

Couldn't easily swap rota with another Doctor as DU would have disclose the reason for the swap.

KS had already told all and sundry.

My blood pressure is rising!

From TT

KS We are a close team and anything that threatens wellbeing of staff. And have to think of serice rota and make sure it is covered. If someone phoned distressed they wldnt need to explain
JR Why imp for the 2 not to meet?
KS She'd met SP in the am of the shift trying to keep to her shifts, and having bumped into her she was v upset, feeling v threatened - just from seeing her. we had to ensure they didnt see each other again
JR Did u talk to SPs manager re shifts?
KS I spoke to ? about shifts
KS We checked the rotas for the coming month
JR Any contact w IB in this time?
KS Nothing verbal. An email to say had Datix, and she agreed w the Datix and referral as event sounded discriminatory. She advised reporting it to HR.
JR What further suggestions did u make?
KS I advised her lodging formal Cx with her LM Melvin Carew.
JR Yr email [reads re shift patterns and checking w Louise] Can u give detail re drs rota?
KS It's done 6 months in advance several months in advance. So Beth's rosta was already complete until Aug 24.
JR How cld a change be done to rota?
KS Sometimes u can swap, but difficult at the time but tricky as Beth cldnt tell anyone why she wanted an informal swap

Fifer : this is aw grist for the mill. NC is gonnae be running richt through aw this in aboot 40 minutes time, like it's the 60 yairds open at Ballingry Games.

All medical professionals are, therefore all are utterly perfect and nobody is ever a wee shite. Ever. 😄

It seems no one had a duty of care to Sandie Peggie doesn’t it?

I agree, think something interesting going on psychologically with the handmaidens.

Women who are extra kind and go the extra mile for a man in a difficult situation but brutal and unempathetic about the suffering of another woman. Is it the female equivalent of male chivalry towards women?

Having been greeted in a professional way by SP, DU had a dawning horror that his version of events would not stick.

no one in Team Doctors did anyway.

Lost it at this. GMC code of conduct = magical spell that stops anyone from lying about anything, ever.

It doesn’t really make any sense. If KS followed up and asked for verification of DU’s claims at the time they were presented then it is unlikely there would have been any concerns of ‘safety’ unless she though SP might come at her with an axe.

I think it is being deployed as another strand to the nebulous accusations of racism ie the implication being that SP is racist and is supported by racists.

Otherwise the identification of the witness as mixed race is entirely unnecessary.

She could have said ‘when I recently asked her to corroborate my claims she raised concerns about press and public attention’. This would be valid given the SM vitriol without mentioning her being mixed race.

So it feels exaggerated to hint at the other narrative.

Also no mention of witnesses being reluctant to come forward in the internal disciplinary process.

Yup, it's been entirely deliberate -

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

All they'd have to disclose is a personal dispute, not the details, surely, it wouldn't have been outing to Upton just these two need to be separated and we're dealing with it.

In respect of exercising their professional obligations to a patient. Not in their personal lives or interactions. If doctors could never lie in their personal lives without risking being struck off we'd have no doctors at all.

Like he's ascended to the realm of mega-woman? Sounds peachy.

How very unsurprising. 🙄