NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

Probably also a side benefit that references to Isla Bryson are a chilling reminder of how far this nonsense has gone.

Things may not have been so rosy in his previous job.

<waves celery vigorously>

Is anyone surprised? I can't understand the mentality of someone who would go on the war path because a sick, elderly patient didn't notice that they had a special gender identity.

I think the short answer is that GC thought is permitted, but GC speech is hate.

Didn't you see Bez's description of NC: sphinx-like.
Panoptic. Omniscient. Focused. Relentless. Illimitable.
Descended from the Celtic warrior named Cuinneagáin Do-corraitheach - Cunningham Who Will Not Be Stirred to Anger.

Puts me in mind of this great hymn:

1 Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
in light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
most blessed, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
almighty, victorious, thy great name we praise.
2 Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
nor wanting, nor wasting, thou rulest in might;
thy justice like mountains high soaring above
thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.
3 To all life thou givest, to both great and small;
in all life thou livest, the true life of all;
we blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
and wither and perish but naught changeth thee.
4 Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
thine angels adore thee, all veiling their sight;
all praise we would render, O help us to see
'tis only the splendor of light hideth thee.

I think NC can probably trust the panel to spot this sort of thing for themselves, and she also has the option to include it in her summation (if I've got the right word).

Ahhhh so everyone knew about him, and he had form.

This was so always going to happen.

He was looking for a target.

How about a complimentary - GI though is permitted but GI speech is not

Would make things a lot easier

Hence the 'contemporaneous notes'

I think on the last thread this was posted but the article can't be found in any official papers so take it with a pinch of salt.

And YY to especially A and E patients being drunk/deliruim aggressive etc. He would not cope, how on earth can someone like Upton have dealt with them? hid in the female toilets while the (female) triage nurse dealt with them and called security probably.

My use of 'UK' was deliberate, as DBS covers the UK, not just E&W. PVG is Scotland only (I know you know!). I used to have both, as I work all over the place. I now just use DBS, and my Scottish employers accept it.

It's untenable for it to be unacceptable to tell a man he's a man as a blanket rule. I quite see that if you're deeply invested in not being a man, you will find it humiliating and hurtful for someone to point out that you are and agree that generally that would be inappropriate. Like if you just walked up to a colleague in the break room and told him he's a man, there's no need for that.

But it just cannot be inappropriate to say why someone shouldn't be in a single sex space if the reason is that they're not the right sex - even though it would have been better if management had dealt with the situation before it reached that point.

Sometimes the truth might be unpleasant for someone to hear but still need to be said. Policy (official or otherwise) that makes the truth unsayable in all situations is illegitimate imo.

It's the spin that was put on Maya's judgment, where the EAT said GC views are fine, they're just not a licence for bullying and harassment.

Which TRAs interpreted to mean you can think the thing, but you can't ever say the thing, no matter how politely, or how relevant the thing might be.

It's very much a Buford T Justice approach:

Is he a threat to patient safety because he'll refuse to treat them because they have dementia and can't cope with sodding pronouns?

Wow! 🤯 So DrU had form.

definitely. And can you define the word “gender” in it @Tandora as that would be great thanks. without resorting to stereotyping ofc. Enough derailing sorry

My mum is 90, and recently met a friend of the family who is a TiM. We discussed this before they met, and she said, "Oh yes, I know what trans is." Now when she refers to this person, she says, "That bloke." (I say nothing here... I'm certainly not going to correct her.) Anyway, this is when she is feeling lucid - if she were ill in hospital, I certainly wouldn't expect her to refer to an obvious male as "she" or a "woman". That's such an imposition.

So KS didn't report on the datix verbatim, but instead embellished?

Oh dear.

It’s what narcissists do, they not only look for a target, they will create one if none is immediately available. They spend their lives looking to be offended/outraged/misgendered.

It is quite funny watching an erstwhile Topp Ally finding out they failed a test somehow and now they're basically about as welcome as a dog's fart at a perfume counter.

we're back!

From TT

We begin.
JR Looking at the full Datix on p1227. Is that the doc u completed/ Who typed? KS Myself
JR Who articulated?
KS We wrote it ogether filling in all the boxes.
JR Describing time and events [incident involving PC and GI]
KS I incl what we felt were the most important an relevant details of why reporting
JR The policy says shld record all hate incidents. The witness interpreted as completing a Datix. Why did u feel that was necessary
KS My interp of the policy is it shld be on Datix as met defn of a HI

Fifer : KS had awready decided that DU wid yase the Female Changing, but SP hated that idea. Therefore : hate incident. Fuckin Quod Erat Demonsta eh hingy

Is it usual to refer to transgender female ?
I thought it was trans woman. Female always refers to sex and biology doesn't it?

For anyone who works at hospitals, when the student doctors are going through their placements is it unusual for there to be gossip when you're due a new bunch?

Edit to delete sentence because I forgot to attach the .gif. Probably just as well.

Sigh Don't get us started @GreenFriedTomato