NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

The abject cynic in me is thinking that JR was filibustering this morning just to rule up NC....

Given explanation as to the delay.

I can't find enough published detail to say for certain, but I would expect the same rules to apply given the legal framework. If the police disclose anything to PVG that they wouldn't put on an Enhanced DBS, my view is that the subject of the disclosure has a good case to sue Police Scotland.

Dunninig-Kruger at work!

Is all of it - the performative incompetence, the red bull squirrels, the compulsory genderism, the persecution of dissidents, a distracting snowstorm intended to give any potential critical examination of NHSF things to focus on that will keep attention away from some great big THING elsewhere?

It doesn't matter of they get pilloried and fined for this, it's just women's stuff, it's of no account, the circus will move on and whatever else is happening in and around the hospital or the trust will not be noticed.

I do find the posts interrupting everyone to tell us to stop with the posts interrupting everyone is like the man in the cinema turning round to tell you to be quiet, when you've whispered something to your friend, despite the fact he's busy rustling and crunching his way through a six pack of crisps.

God that was a long sentence.

It's not clear from TT who first brought up DU using the female CR:

JR - what discussion with DU about F CR use?
KS - checked knew where was, happy to use it, had used in previous jobs, extent of conv.
JR - who suggested DU use F CR?
KS - Beth use in previous job, happy and comfortable, so I made no other suggestion
JR - recall what you said?
KS - not an in depth conv, asked if happy using, she said yes. I had nothing to add

Does 'checked knew where was' mean that KS asked DU if he knew where the female CR was, and if he was happy to use it?
Or DU checked he had the right location for it, and said He was happy to use it and had used the female Cr in previous jobs?

Either way, KS just went along with whatever he wanted, regardless of workplace regs or EA or GRC or women's opinions, but it looks from TT like she asked 'And have you found the women's changing room OK, Beth?'

I hope JR doesn't spend all afternoon on Q KS. I've got to go to work tomorrow and want to listen to at least an hour of NC cross-examination.

Currently only available on IOS but apparently coming soon to Android! We are counting down the days!

KS wanted to call the police??

Loving the thought that AI will learn from this that proper conversations should veer off into discussion of random vegetables, language learning, owls and so on

As we're on a break...eek ...

It's great. I can actually lose a game of chess with some dignity now. I've never been able to quite grasp it before!

Just want to say, as a long-time lurker on this thread, how brilliant it is. The explanations and commentaries on what's going on are so helpful (and often hilarious), so thanks everyone :)

Also wanted to say, as an ex-employee of the NHS, that for me this whole thing has less to do with the transgender issue (although how they thought that would never blow up in their faces, I don't know), but more about this being the MO of NHS management for a very, very long time. I think KS's conduct has brought that into quite sharp focus. Managers regularly act as judge, jury and executioner when issues arise, and it's no secret that the whole institution has a bullying problem. It's just because of the subject matter in this case that it's made it to such a high profile. But it affects everyone who works within it, really. SP may have made herself a target by refusing to drink the same Kool Aid as everyone else, but others have done the same simply by whistleblowing about unsafe practices. The rot really needs to be dug out; it's an organisation that is funded by the public, that the public relies upon and which is continually failing to be financially viable. Surely some of that must be down to staff retention/ quality?

I agree. I'm sure the person Sandie spoke to said there was nothing untoward in the interaction

Found the relevant TTs about SP ''ignoring'' DU.

He says:

DU - I said hi and waved to C. She answered Rhianna, didn't look at me but said no concerns

Then there's this during Naomi's questioning:

NC - reads - 'on nightshift with SP, ignoring me as usual, Rhianna brought SP, SP answered to R not me', again recorded incident in phone, not as safety for patient issue. Sandie responded to R not you and didn't acknowledge your thanks.

DU - yes when I was close
NC - trivial no?
DU - not when it's a pattern, not even lookign at you again, not unreasonable to think ignoring.
NC - neither SP or R have mentioned this incident in evidence.
JR - SP said doesn't recall this incident
J - will check evidence
NC - nobody else remembers this.
DU - I didn't make it up, it's not unreasonable to say she's being off with me. May well be ignoring me.
NC - refs page. Note of R;s IX interview. Asked if aware of incident and to describe. She remembers conversation occured but not content
NC - contradicts you, she remembers SP and you talking.
DU - appears to contradict

This may have been answered already, I'm several pages behind, but this is roughly correct process.

Ideally, one person who witnesses an incident completes the datix asap after the event with a factual account of what happened. There is a place for recording other witnesses.

The datix is reviewed by management staff, who then speak to all everyone independently.

What's unusual in this case is that KS supported DU (who hadn't done it before) to complete the form. And that it was completed several days after the event, which is less than ideal because it is clear that DU did not recall exactly what SP had said, more the interpretation of the meaning.

But both of those make sense in the context of a junior doctor meeting with a clinical supervisor, who says "actually we need to datix this."

I think I just clicked on a paywalled article and the ‘subscribe for £1’ box flashed up. I went to the subscription page first, and it offered lots of <more expensive> options.

Wow have been on holiday. When did Scotland leave the UK? Sarcasm I know but...

in fairness to Upton (and this is no defence of him at all, just an observation , I can see how an experienced A and E nurse particularly could be quite the shock to a man previous surrounded by adoring “you’re so stunning and brave” cheerleaders etc. i know a similar nurse even smaller (and lot younger)than Sandie and she is very firm and assertive altho ofc as she is a woman she’s “bossy” if you are used to simpering and fawning, a rational and factual, conversation with someone like her could be perceived as fucking terrifying despite her size (and she doesn’t even weigh enough to donate blood!) she seems.more effective than some hospital security staff. the other week she managed to get a man to hand over the bladed article he was pointing towards her.

i imagine someone like Upton would never even return to the hospital after a “confrontation” with her as he would be so traumatised.

i also know admittedly anecdotal plenty of young women like her who have grown up from the previously indoctrinated “be kind a man can be a woman”, and are speaking out more and more.ofc now the scales have fallen from their eyes, they are full on swivel eyed raptors.

PS love your Fifer @BezMills and all the humour on thr thread. I see it as a sort of support type thread for Sandie as well as factual reporting, and an outlet for us all not to launch our fucking screens at the nearest wall! This took me so long to type we are probably not on a break anymore and I’ll be scolded, not sorry!

I found a FOI which is quite interesting -

https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/hwlerbwy/24-1030-dl-response.docx

Fife policies seem to be a law unto themselves but generally employees are encouraged to resolve disputes themselves. By labelling this as a hate incident from the start KS/DU were cutting off other avenues of resolving the case which would have meant reviewing the decision to allow DU to use the F CR.

I was listening to Today that morning and nearly fell out of bed I was laughing so much!

It's not clear at all, and we must not go beyond the evidence and rely on memories of a TW turning up in a workplace and the first thing they say (in booming male voice) is "can you direct me to the ladies?"

SNP been trying to do it by stealth for ages. Have you not seen the big trench they're digging by Hadrian's wall?

Now you have said that makes me think he is gonna need his hand help and be a royal pain for whoever employs him his whole career.. although after this he may think before pushing it this far again!

Aye, and music.

Yeah, seems so. Call the police because a woman doesn't want to undress in front of a man? (And of course not even speak to the woman about it, because naturally we'll believe the man's account, and who cares about the woman anyway.)

My gob is smacked.