Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

1000 replies

nauticant · 21/07/2025 14:55

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/07/2025 17:07

I have not followed too closely today so apologies if this makes no sense

I'm conducting an investigation
Confidential background material turned up on my desk
People drop confidential stuff on my desk all the time - it's open house
I have no idea who left it
I have no idea who wrote it
It was essentially anonymous
I used it in the investigation
Then I threw it away
There are no copies

It all seems a bit contrived that the document no longer exists and no one signed it so there is no possible investigative route to finding it again.

Wonder what damming information was in it?

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 17:09

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2025 17:00

A really interesting perspective. It seems Boswell has focused his legal mind on CM's open admissions of the lack of due process in her actions. She did repeatedly cite that she hadn't seen or read certain documents, cited gossip without evidence that was relayed to her and subjected SP to extended oversight - despite the lack of any evidence. As seen by Fife dismissing the case against SP.

I wonder whether the relief of hearing someone trying to be more objective and fair to SP in that toxic institution obscured many of her failures to ensure due process "I found a document on my desk" ets.

There might be some truth in that, she's so much more reasonable than their previous witnesses, but of course that's a very low bar!

Canijustsayonething · 21/07/2025 17:09

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 21/07/2025 16:45

I have had a reply to my own complaint about the headline and found it a 'none-response'.

They sent a general reply that did not address my objections. (I pointed out how and why the headline did not represent the day's events or even the article that it headed. I also pointed out how some of the word choices had effects that were far from neutral.)

It is telling that they said: 'to ensure we use our licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone'. It is an admission that they had too many complaints about this article to reply to them individually.

However, I don't feel that they should ignore my e-mail just because they had others on the same subject. I didn't write as part of a group. I wrote because of my own concerns.

I guess I must find out how to take this to the next step.

if they didn't give half-baked presenters and DJ's such outlandish salaries, the BBC could perhaps afford to staff a complaints department properly so that they could reply to individual complainants. imagine other massive companies and corporations replying to individual complainants with a generic 'group' response?! absolutely ridiculous response from the BBC.

BugsyMaroon · 21/07/2025 17:09

I am truly sickened by the unevidenced racist and homophobic allegations being aired again.

But I have faith the ET judges will see this exactly for what it is.

Poor Sandie. I know she has 30 years of dedicated unblemished experience and so her loss to the NHS and us all generally is awful. But I hope she gets the biggest fucking payout ever and can retire to any multitude of holiday homes in sunnier climes.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 17:11

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 21/07/2025 16:45

I have had a reply to my own complaint about the headline and found it a 'none-response'.

They sent a general reply that did not address my objections. (I pointed out how and why the headline did not represent the day's events or even the article that it headed. I also pointed out how some of the word choices had effects that were far from neutral.)

It is telling that they said: 'to ensure we use our licence fee resources as efficiently as possible, we’re sending this response to everyone'. It is an admission that they had too many complaints about this article to reply to them individually.

However, I don't feel that they should ignore my e-mail just because they had others on the same subject. I didn't write as part of a group. I wrote because of my own concerns.

I guess I must find out how to take this to the next step.

Maybe they just can't admit you all had a point. Today's headline is better though! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c307ez5l4gqo

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35
nauticant · 21/07/2025 17:12

Llamasarellovely · 21/07/2025 16:22

Yep, I've reported it myself, thanks. Don't want to derail.

Great. I want MNHQ to see that this thread can police itself and doesn't land them with difficult problems requiring them to intervene.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 21/07/2025 17:12

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 17:11

Maybe they just can't admit you all had a point. Today's headline is better though! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c307ez5l4gqo

I doubt even the bbc has the stomach for JRs slurs

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 21/07/2025 17:14

Harassedevictee · 21/07/2025 16:43

That is so interesting. It will be worth watching to see how JR works when she is arguing the opposite position.

I don't think JR will be? Ann has NC representing her, so I think we'll just see more of the same ?

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 17:14

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:02

I agree

I don't see it like Boswell in this case and I'm not so concerned about the document on her desk. She has a senior role and a PA to deal with the basic admin. I'd expect that she would be spoon fed summaries and relevant docs on a "just in time" basis for lots of meetings based on the items booked in her diary. She has to assume she has been given the relevant information - and in the end the summary she was given seems to be relatively neutral. She states twice - that she would usually seek to avoid suspending any staff -

We do know that LM was aware of there being legal/ET rumblings so she was on best behaviour with the information she did have. And on that basis she ignored tittle-tattle and went on the facts. In general I thought her approach to different beliefs was credible and balanced. She gave me faith that someone in Fife could do a decent job.

The fact she was open about colleagues opposing her opinions was interesting. Also that she outed ED and KS as the people keen to spread rumours. As a result, ED has moved from blancmange to snake in my mind on hearing about this - because this is not at all how ED presented herself back in February. The fact that ED was saying that SP was "anti-trans" to colleagues in preparation for meetings about SP's suspension and LM's suspension review sounded really egregious IMO. Then there are problems with ED and KS seeming to hold out on details of rotas which would have let LM get SP back to work in earnest - or that is her story anyway...

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/07/2025 17:15

BugsyMaroon · 21/07/2025 17:09

I am truly sickened by the unevidenced racist and homophobic allegations being aired again.

But I have faith the ET judges will see this exactly for what it is.

Poor Sandie. I know she has 30 years of dedicated unblemished experience and so her loss to the NHS and us all generally is awful. But I hope she gets the biggest fucking payout ever and can retire to any multitude of holiday homes in sunnier climes.

Edited

Just vindictive perhaps?

Looks like the transphobia isn't going to stick - let's see if we can assassinate her at work with racism claims and destroy her relationship with her daughter by claiming she despises her being a lesbian

Just trying to make sure that the right person suffers

myplace · 21/07/2025 17:15

As I’ve managed to to actually skip a thread, clearly today has been exciting! I have a lot of skim reading to do.

FeedbackProvider · 21/07/2025 17:15

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/07/2025 17:07

I have not followed too closely today so apologies if this makes no sense

I'm conducting an investigation
Confidential background material turned up on my desk
People drop confidential stuff on my desk all the time - it's open house
I have no idea who left it
I have no idea who wrote it
It was essentially anonymous
I used it in the investigation
Then I threw it away
There are no copies

It all seems a bit contrived that the document no longer exists and no one signed it so there is no possible investigative route to finding it again.

Wonder what damming information was in it?

It’s a bit odd, to non-lawyer me, that NC didn’t ask “who normally leaves documents on your desk”? But I guess, when you’re thinking like a lawyer, that has the possibility of making the process seem more normal, so better to just let that one hang.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 21/07/2025 17:16

They have nothing else do they, other than to try and smear Sandie and paint her as a bigot.

However- EVEN IF SHE WAS - SHE WOULD STILL BE ENTITLED TO A SINGLE SEX SPACE!

As for KS - seems to not report patient safety concerns, but falling over herself to pander to
a man with hurty feels

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 17:17

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 17:11

Maybe they just can't admit you all had a point. Today's headline is better though! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c307ez5l4gqo

we should send them compliments!

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:17

The difference between CM and the rest is that she came on later and was expected to clean things up for the coming ET however, she was supposed to do it in a way that improved their narrative but she was focussed on making herself appear fair and reasonable. She’s been working up to this day of testimony from the off and that is why there is less nonsense surrounding her comments.

She pursued supervision for SP using baseless accusations as a reason and which ensured she had to give up her pattern of work. She didn’t question the lack of policy re the f cr or the fact that no nurses had been consulted or warned in advance. I think she love bombed SP in the hope that she would be able to control her. I think she also love bombed DU in that wellness room chat. She seems to be credible but I don’t believe it.

She knew they couldn’t sustain the suspension because anyone with any sense could see that and she knew the ET was coming. She could easily have argued against the supervision as she claims she had already established SP managers had absolutely no concerns.

She could have argued that DU be supervised to support him but she didn’t. And we know exactly why.

Justabaker · 21/07/2025 17:19

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:59

It does accord with mine. I think we are impressed by the fact that she realised the suspension couldn’t reasonably continue given the evidence and knowing an ET was coming and, of course, that she was willing to bin KS et al but she didn’t keep proper records, her research was limited. She used an anonymous report left on her desk and then lost it.

I have no doubt she was better prepared and, in my view, that is because she has been paying close attention to what has gone on already and thoroughly rehearsed. I think she was genuine in recognising that SP is a person worthy of being treated fairly which is, sadly, astonishing in this context but I don’t think she followed that through in any substantial way and was cleaning things up for the coming ET. Her approach was still chaotic. She didn’t source original documents and didn’t read relevant emails because she claimed they were relevant to her work.

There was a refreshing sense of honesty in the areas she’d decided were safe ie she knows KS is a cooked goose so safe to say that. We might hear from KS tomorrow that CM never said that. The idea that KS said nothing in response is, in my view, not believable. She’d been accused of a significant failure that might make her culpable.

although perhaps she then lobbied for CM to be replaced by the person who came back from sick leave.

at any event, lots of holes that don’t quite add up

I'm with you. Her 'performance' in a sense was better. She came across as not sharpening her pitchfork and readying her torch for 'burn the witch'.

However, I thought there were aspects of her evidence that further holed Good Ship Fife below the waterline.

  • the unsourced document 'left on her desk', should not have touched it with a barge pole without provenance
  • the obvious conflicts between Datix, risk assessment and DU's statement should have triggered follow up
  • the allegations of patient failure - should have triggered follow up
  • astonishing that she did not read the email from SP's solicitor that was the (obvious) trigger for suspension review
  • did not report ED for making an unsubstantiated claim of racist language by SP, likewise homophobic (workplace gossip can be evil but in this context I would be considering every word I said with care.

It was not a 'dramatic' day - after all what could top Friday? But I don't think it was a good for the Rs.

I pass without further comment on JR's follow up questions. Appalling.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:19

Justabaker · 21/07/2025 17:19

I'm with you. Her 'performance' in a sense was better. She came across as not sharpening her pitchfork and readying her torch for 'burn the witch'.

However, I thought there were aspects of her evidence that further holed Good Ship Fife below the waterline.

  • the unsourced document 'left on her desk', should not have touched it with a barge pole without provenance
  • the obvious conflicts between Datix, risk assessment and DU's statement should have triggered follow up
  • the allegations of patient failure - should have triggered follow up
  • astonishing that she did not read the email from SP's solicitor that was the (obvious) trigger for suspension review
  • did not report ED for making an unsubstantiated claim of racist language by SP, likewise homophobic (workplace gossip can be evil but in this context I would be considering every word I said with care.

It was not a 'dramatic' day - after all what could top Friday? But I don't think it was a good for the Rs.

I pass without further comment on JR's follow up questions. Appalling.

I agree

possomblossom · 21/07/2025 17:23

@justabaker "• the unsourced document 'left on her desk', should not have touched it with a barge pole without provenance."

100% this. It's frankly unbelievable that this is acceptable practice.

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:25

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 17:14

I don't see it like Boswell in this case and I'm not so concerned about the document on her desk. She has a senior role and a PA to deal with the basic admin. I'd expect that she would be spoon fed summaries and relevant docs on a "just in time" basis for lots of meetings based on the items booked in her diary. She has to assume she has been given the relevant information - and in the end the summary she was given seems to be relatively neutral. She states twice - that she would usually seek to avoid suspending any staff -

We do know that LM was aware of there being legal/ET rumblings so she was on best behaviour with the information she did have. And on that basis she ignored tittle-tattle and went on the facts. In general I thought her approach to different beliefs was credible and balanced. She gave me faith that someone in Fife could do a decent job.

The fact she was open about colleagues opposing her opinions was interesting. Also that she outed ED and KS as the people keen to spread rumours. As a result, ED has moved from blancmange to snake in my mind on hearing about this - because this is not at all how ED presented herself back in February. The fact that ED was saying that SP was "anti-trans" to colleagues in preparation for meetings about SP's suspension and LM's suspension review sounded really egregious IMO. Then there are problems with ED and KS seeming to hold out on details of rotas which would have let LM get SP back to work in earnest - or that is her story anyway...

I think our relief at someone being willing to admit on the stand that there was a cabal operating is painting her testimony with a glow it doesn’t merit.

if she has been aware of the proceedings she knows she can safely throw them under and better for her if she does.

There is no excuse when dealing with something as serious as a suspension for using an anonymous document and then losing it. If she thought it was from her PA she should have asked them. Since she has a PA she could also have asked them to copy it and track down the source. No excuse in this circs. None.

different if a list appears on your desk with an innocuous list, say, those who prefer hob nobs over digestives but I have never in my professional life once found a note on my desk and not immediately tried to discover who it was from.

But there are many other holes too.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 21/07/2025 17:26

A refresher for tomorrow:

Dr Kate Searle's email on the 29th of December 2023 to c. 20 senior doctors.

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1946162128957698119?

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35
BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 17:26

I thought she said it was probably her PA who left that document on her desk ahead of the meeting, whose presumably is responsible for monitoring emails and arranging meeting etc.

It may well have just been a print of any relevant emails that she has been sent and the Datix incident which is why it hasn't turned up.

I was initially surprised she didn't request a formal written briefing ahead of the review. It's her head on the line if Sandie was a risk.

However the bollocks the managers were sprouting I can also see why she preferred to actually meet Sandie...

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 17:27

Largesso · 21/07/2025 17:25

I think our relief at someone being willing to admit on the stand that there was a cabal operating is painting her testimony with a glow it doesn’t merit.

if she has been aware of the proceedings she knows she can safely throw them under and better for her if she does.

There is no excuse when dealing with something as serious as a suspension for using an anonymous document and then losing it. If she thought it was from her PA she should have asked them. Since she has a PA she could also have asked them to copy it and track down the source. No excuse in this circs. None.

different if a list appears on your desk with an innocuous list, say, those who prefer hob nobs over digestives but I have never in my professional life once found a note on my desk and not immediately tried to discover who it was from.

But there are many other holes too.

Yes the anonymous disappearing document is the weakest point in her testimony.

anyolddinosaur · 21/07/2025 17:27

Boswell had a point (well several). She came across so much better than the other witnesses that it was easy to miss the flaws in her testimony.

I expect Searle to be casting more slurs at Sandie while also saying the email was just for information to explain Sandie's absence and so that Beth would get support if necessary. The patient safety concerns she'll say she did a datix as soon as she heard of them.

Waitwhat23 · 21/07/2025 17:28

I think our relief at someone being willing to admit on the stand that there was a cabal operating is painting her testimony with a glow it doesn’t merit.

Thinking about it, you're probably right. And given the awfulness of other witnesses, she's probably coming across as reasonable but only in comparison to them. I do think she showed more of a willingness to not just burn the witch but there are some holes that are hard to explain.

InvisibleDragon · 21/07/2025 17:29

I think the Boswell summary is wrong on 2 big things:

  • They said it was bad that LM did the suspension review because she didn't know SP. But surely that's what you want - a neutral, senior person who hasn't got an established relationship (favourable or unfavorable) about the person suspended.
  • They criticized LM for suggesting that SP initially returned with supervision. LM seemed clear that this was standard practice following a suspension. LM only got involved after SP had been suspended for several months (initial 4 weeks plus extension), so she can't be held responsible for failure to follow proper process before that. Surely it is to her credit that she did in fact follow standard policy once she was involved? Even if the original reasons for suspension were unfounded, it's better to follow the standard return to work practice than to throw that out of the window too and leave NHS Fife open to further problems because yet another policy wasn't followed properly.
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread