NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

NC: Spiteful tittle-tattle then?
CM: As I say I made sure to stick solely to brief, to review suspension.
NC: And what did Louise Curran say?
CM: Again same rumours - something about Donald Trump. But. Nothing harmful to the board. Ppl entitled to private views

Yes of course they are, such a haven of diversity of thought, NHSF🙄

People who can access your office and leave things on your desk, can also remove them. But it's not the kind of doc that should ever be left on a desk.

Potentially more missing docs?

policies for treating everyone fairly except for the people who get treated a little more fairly than the rest.

CM: So this rose out of the complaint - I think GM went to Belinda Morgan in Estates - I wasn't really involved -
NC: Were there emails, meetings?

CM: I don't know - it was actioned so presumably the process happened.
😂

Well, to be fair to JR, also partly because the people she is defending are a crock of shite!

From TT

NC: Going bac to 'no derogatory language, only SP not accepting DU female". Is it possible that you meant not the Datix and not the 'hate incident' doc, but you meant this summary on your desk?
CM: Honestly can't say.
NC: We've alluded to what you heard from KS and MC - what about from Esther D?
CM: Same as KS and MC - that allegations of walking away from patients, that homophobic and racist, but again nothing documented - third hand - hearsay

Fifer : The three amigas are going to be getting unfriendly menchies in the wrappin up, tellin ye noo.

NC: Spiteful tittle-tattle then?
CM: As I say I made sure to stick solely to brief, to review suspension.
NC: And what did Louise Curran say?
CM: Again same rumours - something about Donald Trump. But. Nothing harmful to the board. Ppl entitled to private views.

NC: Just a few more Qs. This morning - you said something re discussions / enquiries you made with estates. You were asked what you were looking for, and you said it was esclated to GM, and it was about what spaces available. What form did this all take?
CM: So this rose out of the complaint - I think GM went to Belinda Morgan in Estates - I wasn't really involved -
NC: Were there emails, meetings?
CM: I don't know - it was actioned so presumably the process happened.
NC Who is deputy director estates? CM Paul Bishop
NC: Email from you to ED & other re your 7/3 meeting. There is mention of saying male, he, and that this was deliberate misgendering, but that now that you've learned more about this process you ahve better understandign of the language.

Oh dear, now rumours again Sandie is homophobic. As very well defended earlier in the tribunal, Sandie's daughter is a lesbian and she welcomes her into her household.

Just adding to the isms makes the whole thing look worse imo not better. You've got to wonder if ageism comes into it, i.e. a senior nurse is presumed to be a bigot.

I feel very sorry for Sandie hearing how her managers spoke about her behind her back without any evidence to get her suspended.

I can't believe it's possible for her to go back to her job now. Not a lawyer but this strikes me as constructive dismissal territory.

NC tackling the 'misgendering' use of language:
NC: So you now understand that if SP wants to object to DU in the CR, she has to use clear language to do that?
CM: It's not the language I would use, but I understand why SP would re s/o transgender in the CR

By the way, on X Maya F says the Fife NHS statement is now on version 5, one of the journos says 7...

from Herald
3:08pm
Ms Peggie's misgendering of Dr Upton "was deliberate", Ms Myles said in an email to Esther Davidson.
She said everyone has a different way of addressing people. Ms Myles said she personally would refer to Dr Upton as "she/her" but understands not everyone does this.
Ms Cunningham said Ms Myles, however, does not share a changing room with Dr Upton.
Ms Myles said no, but she shares changing rooms with transgender rugby players, but she understands why Ms Peggie chose to use that language.

Oh dear. She is a true believer.

From TT

NC: So you now understand that if SP wants to object to DU in the CR, she has to use clear language to do that?
CM: It's not the language I would use, but I understand why SP would re s/o transgender in the CR
NC: No way SP could have expressed her discomfort in a way acceptable to DU and KS?
CM: I would always say she/her for DU bcs how identifies
NC: You don't use the CR?
CM: No

Fifer : thocht no

NC: If you were sharing with DU and you were unconfortable about it, how wd you epxress that?
CM: Well I can't really bcs I share rugby changing rooms with trans players, but I do completely see why SP wd use her language

spiteful tittle- tattle 😂 that sums up the mean girls team at NHS Fife.

I wonder what the BBC's take on this will be and what can we expect the headline to be later? Something about SP being a racist perhaps?

NC: If you were sharing with DU and you were unconfortable about it, how wd you epxress that?
CM: Well I can't really bcs I share rugby changing rooms with trans players, but I do completely see why SP wd use her language.
sorry for x-post with Bez

😂 Anytime I feel less than in my job I will think about that statement

CM is under oath, there are still a few people in the world who take oaths seriously. Or she could just realise Fife are going down and refuse to go with them. If she hasnt already found another job elsewhere she might need to look for one.

spiteful tittle-tattle. Hmmm, wonder who that is referring to. 🙂

Spiteful tittle tattle then! Very to the point NC 😘

Some years ago, I worked for a women's organisation. A new-ish young finance assistant took it upon herself to assign 'Miss' and 'Mrs' to people's names on the payslips, based on what she knew of them (it was a fairly small organisation). There had previously been no titles. She was TELT very sharpish, and had to sit through a couple of feminist lectures from her colleagues when they discovered the change. The payslips were back to normal the following month.

She'll probably be disciplined for it. 🙄

Apologies @nauticant - I placemarked before I saw your warning. Don't ban me please! I'm five hours behind the rest of you so you all get started way before I wake up.

From TT

NC [missed - I think re a trans patient]
CM: SP seemed perfectly OK with it - empathetic - I had no concerns at all.
NC: There is nothing wrong with feeling sorry for ppl so unhappy with their bodies they want to change them?
CM: Yes it's good and natural to empathise - in many circs not just this one, but including this one.
NC: And to feel sorry for ppl who get terribly upset with others who don't fully accept [missed]
CM[ missed]
NC: DO you know roughly how many ppl used the CR?
CM: Maybe 200? V much a guess.
NC: Just as a matter of logic - letting DU use the room, means all 200 of them lost single-sex space for changing?

NC : leaves it hingin oot. She can wait.

It's actually more to her credit that she behaved correctly towards SP. It's proof, if it were needed, that even people who concur with GI beliefs can follow the law and policy, and it's a clear contrast to the way the TRAs crowd behaves.