NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

CM I explained I was the LM who decided on SPs return.
Her 'I am Spartacus' moment - and I mustn't have been easy when surrounded by the rest of them.

From v early april for 8 weeks. Triggered by hearing that claim had been made to tribunal at end of March

I mean this is the thing, no one in my work knows if I'm GC, my views on independence or which political party I vote for. They could probably guess a few of those things but might be surprised by others. Ultimately though they should know that when I have dealt with grievances and disciplinaries I have done so calmly, fairly and even handedly and in line with our policies and advice from our employment support provider (equivalent of HR). It shouldn't make any difference what people's views are in carrying out these processes and it looks to me like that is one of the fundamental mistakes many of the people involved with this made. Current witness may or may not be GC but the fact it isn't obvious either way suggests she might actually have some idea of professionalism. NHS Fife will probably need to suspend her soon for raising standards 😂

I do miss the “laugh” reaction.

These people are mad bastards. There really is nothing else to add.

Well this witness seems to have at least tried to do her job. JR will have called her because she has to try and make out the suspension was to "help" Sandie - when it was not.

As for Upton's 4 shifts left in a&E I said earlier that he was going to psych. I'm afraid I got that wrong. He had been on a psych rotation before a&e and was then moving on to anaesthetics. A doctor working in anaesthetics might get called into a&e for things like airway support if there was no-one else to do it but I'm not sure how often they might be called to a&e if on night shift. It's more likely a junior doctor might get called to a&e for something at night when there are fewer staff around.

If CM had done her job very well she'd have realised that even if he got called in Sandie only had an issue with him in the changing room, she had worked professionally with him, and he shouldnt need to use the changing room used by a&e staff. I guess she may have been trying to protect Sandie from the risk of Upton making more unfounded allegations. The "supervised practise" bit, though, was just unnecessary if that was the sole aim.

Does anyone recall the earliest date when any written statement from Dr U was taken by NHS Fife?

One thing that I haven't seen picked up is that the new locations SP was offered were under CM's line management responsibility. I might be giving CM the benefit of the doubt here, but it could be that she recognised something was off (ie, ED approaching her with prior to the meeting and giving her the latest gossip!) and tried to do something to move her away from that group, at least for a period of time.

Who knows, as Fife is a shitshow. However, CM seems to be the only person so far who has seemed at least halfway competent.

I don’t understand the day shift support thing. Are they saying there are no nursing staff over band 5 on a night shift? No shift lead? Nobody who SP could get “support” from?

CM testimony/attitude is so different to all previous witnesses.
She's either more reasonable and fair than the others involved. OR has knowledge of the way things have gone for previous witnesses. I'm not suggesting in any way the latter but she has made quite a point of highlighting that she didn't jump to any conclusions or respond to gossip/hearsay and so on.

Well, CM at least seems to have some understanding of what a shitshow this is looking and has decided to position herself as the Voice of Reason. She's quite deftly established herself as more impartial, effective and professional than the others (so saving her own back and dobbing in some other colleagues) while dropping in the homophobic and racist slurs against Peggie so that she can say afterwards that she isn't a Peggie supporter. She's senior management. If the Board really is imploding, she may have her eyes on moving up the ladder. Looking forward to seeing NC's take on it all.

This is part of that I absolutely love about this thread. It's a bit like Test Match Special on the radio. Ball by ball account, in depth commentary, weird questions answered and some random side conversations all going on the same time. Especially when we are waiting for "play" to begin. Please carry on all!

Regarding the Freedom of Expression bit earlier is the witness and JR really saying that only Dr U is entitled to FoE?

Not impossible. DD is a nurse and there were shifts where she (a newly qualified B5) was the senior member of the nursing staff. It was awful.

I agree. And this is an example of how important it is to be able to see the witness [or use other ways to assess them, as I know blind people can]. CM is coming across well in the transcripts, and I've said 'IF she is sincere' a few times.
I hope she is coming across as truthful, so there is at least one reasonable person in this NHSF shitshow!

Regarding the Freedom of Expression bit earlier is the witness and JR really saying that only Dr U is entitled to FoE?

No: I read that as CM understanding that FoE is a right for both, hence the requirement to split them up for the remining four weeks Upton was going to be working in the ED.

Had a quick look to see how the case was being discussed on Blue sky and found this...

A similar thing happened to me years ago. I wasn't officially suspended but a new manager came who really did not like me and tried to claim that I needed 'support' and needed to work day shifts.( I had worked nights for a year at that point).
It's true that there is more 'support' on days as there are more senior staff and managers around. But there is always a manager and a few senior staff on shift on nights too (just fewer of them obviously because there are fewer staff working nights).

It's true that there can be MORE support but its an excuse often used when they want to move someone to days.

Does anyone know what sort of age group CM falls into?

the supervision and insistence that is is to be viewed as support undermines her earlier attempts
to present her approach as being more considerate of Sandie’s experience than any other. If that were indeed the case she would have taken the time to set out in more detail why it was supportive rather than punitive but she expects Sandie to accept it. It is clear as day that this is to try and placate DU and so none of CM testimony feels authentic. She was good at presenting two faces I think, that’s all.

You know what really bothers me while all this is going on he is still entering the womens changing room and they are organising SP new shifts specifically so he can feel comfortable using the womens changing rooms!
Did no one at any point think.. what if SP isnt the only woman on staff who feels this way?

For God sake. He couldn't be further on the wrong side of history, if he tried.

There could be a band 6 as most senior nurse. There'll be far less senior staff on, none on office hours at all. So all will be involved in direct patient care on the shop floor and less available to manage incidents.

There will be no additional senior back up too, no managers and day office type staff. No occ health or hr to contact.

Oh they thought it, but fear stopped anyone expressing that.

It's how this whole ideology has come so far.

Also, the moving someone to day shifts to 'support' them is often code for 'so we can keep an eye on you and know what you're up to'. Sod all to do with supporting the staff member.

Someone need to tell him that Sex Matters is the new JK Rowling. Keep up, Jolyon!