NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

I'm sure that will be given the appropriate level of importance by the Tribunal.

<snorts derisively>

The bank holidays would be lost if she hadn’t returned by April 1st.

They're back for part 2

Could this witness be GC and just trying to muddle along with it all? Just a thought..

I don''t think so.

"She said / she said" (and likewise "he said / he said ") are not commonly used. "She said / she said" is not the phrase you'd automatically go for in a situation where both sides are women. You'd probably say "One person's word against another's" or "Ms Pegge's word against Dr Upton's"

"He said / she said" however is an everyday phrase that rolls off the tongue and is entirely appropriate for this situation should you consider DU to be a man/male person.

Pretty sure "She said / she said" is an indictation that CM thinks of BU as a man and consciously translates language about BU.

but this was pre FWS and the SC ruling, and it shows clearly why this ruling was needed.

They are treating Upton as the sex he claims to be - ergo the women's changing room is still, according to their incorrect understanding of the law, a women's space with no men in it.

I'm hoping that she's someone who values a professional approach and applies that as the best way to do her job.

CM is talking about writing to SP on 28 March here (so 3 months in). Does this mean that no documentation was forthcoming before 28 March? I hope NC grills her

CM: Were some concerns raised- patient safety - later. I challenged these and asked whether documented and escalated. I felt it was heresay but to prevent further allegations I felt havng a senior was important for her

😂 Yes it's brand new information that NC is associated with Sex matters. Fucking idiots!

It must be a man as they usually spout off without any research to see if they have the facts, with the assumption and knowledge that they are right.

Those who don't enjoy the chit-chat could just watch TT on Twitter/ Nitter instead. I, for one, enjoy the chit-chat but I wish there was an audio version so I could go and get dressed! Staring at this screen all day is making me swivel-eyed.

They also appear to think it is illegal to misgender someone.

she definitely seems more that way.. id prefer all the witnesses like that instead of actively policing their own language no wonder SP had no chance at fairness with that happening!

Where is the EA 2010 does it back up "When I looked at GR we have to treat the person as the sex they ID as", and how on earth can it make sense to have PCs of sex and sexual orientation if "sex = female" includes males and "sex. or. = lesbian includes men"?

Early lunch back at 1.40

She does seem to be coming across that way (so far). Less inclined to run Sandie out the hospital with a flaming torch and more trying to find a reasonable situation for everyone.

ED highlighted that SP had transphobic views due to an incident in a CR

CM had never met SP and didn’t know she had “GC” views until an hour before her meeting with her. ED - the woman who had been “sympathetic” when SP first approached her about the SS CR- from TT
NC - refs page - 1/3 way down your interview with AG, she gives your account of conv. says you said, not aware of that will contact Eq and Div. that you'll check policy and get back. SP says you were sympathetic and you'd get it sorted?
ED - don't want anyone upset, was sympath)

Sympathetic ED briefed CM that SP was “anti-trans” one hour before the Sx meeting. CM had heard “hearsay” that SP had racist and homophobic views (but had never met her and didn’t seem aware of her) - hearsay from whom? ED?
Im not a nurse but I’m in an HCPC regulated profession and if my line manager went to a senior and told them I’m a anti-trans, racist and homophobic then I would report them even if it wasn’t to a person who had control of lifting my suspension. You just aren’t allowed to make shit up about your colleagues,

From TT

We will shortly begin the second morning session of Peggie v NHS Fife and Dr Upton

JR Look at p1316, email from u to ED and LC. You say y'd ahd a phone call w SP who said she didnt want to return on days
CM it was a pleasant convo. She was used to night shifts and wld disrupt her routine to change
JR Did the graduated return over 4 wks happen?
CM We came to a pattern of mostly working w/ends that wld work for people
JR On Apr 1st SP emails you ref to diff with her dog care and she suggests w/end working
CM Sp made the suggestion of w/ends. I was happy w this
JR In yr reply u say you can accomodate this. An email fro KS re DU's shifts
CM the discussion was re DUs shift timings to ensure they werent in the dept at the same time
JR She said about them not being in at the same time, esp at start and finishes
CM I thought this was sensible
JR This email describes no opportunity for them to have contact. On p329, the email from u to ED and LC: about phased w/end working u ref a discussion calling it a compromise. why?
CM Originally concern that limited support on floor at w/ends but I said wasnt concerns re patients and no cross over w DU. We agreed was a sensible solution.
JR Did u have a view about no band 6 being there?
CM No. I dont do nurse rotas
JR Emails re shifts going into May. Was she content w the pattern y'd proposed?
CM She seemed to be

Fifer : ah've had ma piece and a chance tae have a wee hink. CM seems soond enough and definitely on the ba'. Whether she's played fair fair wi Wee Sondie, hard tae say, ken. Noo ah wonder what's goin through thon supercomputer atween NC's lugs. We'll fun oot soon enough.

When did Dr Upton go off with stress? Was it after he saw Sandie in a corridor and fled?

This witness sounds like you would expect a person responsible for running a big chunk of a hospital to sound!

On the surface it would seem so but thee us also a wee whiff to it - as if she is up to date in wider opinion and testimony which she should have avoided.

But post Haldane - the SC ruling only discussed people with GRCs.

However, I agree that the SC ruling explained this point more clearly when they discussed the impact of a certificate on sexual attraction.

They're very proud to have uncovered this smoking gun.

The emphasis on support for supervision is so insulting I can’t believe her credible on her claims of trying to be even handed and fair. She said to Sandie it wasn’t punitive but not offered any explanation as to how it offered support.

From TT

CM I explained was a good compromise and best for the service as well
JR * April to Sandra Raynor where u ref a mtg with Beth
CM I explained I was the LM who decided on SPs return. I gave a rationale of why returning her and reiterated I was there to support DU as well.
CM I felt it best to tell her myself
JR What was your involvement in the Ix?
CM I didnt have any involvement
JR What was your involvement after the 18th?
CM I had none at all.
JR That's the end of my questions.

J Big Sond It's probably best to have an early lunch then. We have an hour for lunch so we will return at 20 to 2

It is allegedly trans ex police officer Alex Horwood, aka Lynsay Watson.

They've finally taken out the non sequitur sentence about Sex Matters, that was a hangover from when they were slurring Sex Matters on Friday.

Statement on the Recommencement of the Employment Tribunal | NHS Fife