NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

To me it reads witness CM reports an attempt to nobble her before meeting SP.
JR hoping to fling enough mud that some will stick?

I totally think she is covering her own arse, I wonder how she'll manage when it's NC's turn

TBF most reasonable people who are not aware of the debate would be the same. CR did then expand her knowledge.

See the descriptions about peaking.

From TT:
"CM they are entitled to FoE but not to be brought into the workplace"

Guessing FoE is freedom of expression and this refers to SP's 'GC beliefs' - ie telling the truth that a man is a man. How ironic because it's ok for Dr U to bring his freedom of expression of pretending to be a woman into the workplace.

Correct. CM clearly wasn't exerting herself to understand SP's position fully at the time.

Why, if Upton had only 4 ED shifts left by early January 2024, was SP being persuaded to go and work elsewhere? When did Upton leave the ED, then?

From TT

JR [reads re return on 8th March and phasing] What were return plans at that stage
CM Phased returns are normal (describes potentials). Plan was to schedule SP shifts around DU's.
JR [reads re para 3 and FoE] What do u mean by this?
CM They are entitled to FoE but not to be brought into the workplace

Fifer : so basically Wee Sondie is entitled tae hink that female-only changin rooms are a thing, when she's in the hoose, but if hinks that female changin rooms exist when she's at her work, she's a total bam bastart. Got it.

JR Next is fitness to practice
CM I evaluated her safety to other patients and staff and felt there'd be no concerns on her return
JR Then the EA2010?
CM I had to look into it. It's quite a grey area and didnt want to treat either badly.
When I looked at GR we have to treat the person as the sex they ID as. And wanted SP tot be treated equally and fairly
JR Look at yr email to GM at 4.30 on March 7th.
CM I think I met SP at 11.30 but cant recall exactly. Our mtg lasted over an hour
CM I sent the email to her as she's head of nursing. I wanted to keep her in the loop and she'd req the Sx review and I wanted her informed re supported return to work
JR It's v similar to the summary?
CM Yes, I copied and pasted
JR U discussed w SP later?

Yeah i can see that too.. but given the other witnesses i doubt she was completely unaware..

CM does seem a bit less batshit. Still it will be very interesting if NC asks questions around sex. Let's see if she knows what sex she is, or whether those pesky chromosomes haven't been tested yet 🤪

Ahh CM slipped up and said he said/she said. 😂

Naughty ally

Nice spot.

(Btw going back to previous conversations - is there any particular reason why women over 40 years old are 'not allowed' opinions 'in case TRAs decide to call us dinosaurs'? Only if they do, all they are achieving is showing they are discriminating on the basis of the protected characteristic of age. Which doesn't exactly make them look good. I'm quite happy for the slur to be thrown if it means its yet another lens on their own prejudices).

I was having to breathe through this bit. It is indefensible.

62

CM They are entitled to FoE but not to be brought into the workplace

How else is she supposed to express her discomfort at getting undressed in front of a man and assert her legal right to a female-only changing room in the workplace, then? Go home and stand in the corner whispering her upset at the wall? 🙄

Interesting description of the Christmas Eve incident as "he said, she said" by LM! I hope NC asks about this.

Interesting witness. She seems to be saying that the prospect of an employment tribunal influenced the decision to bring her back into the workplace.

CM does seem to be even handed and probably thought WTF when this got dropped in her lap.

Compared to other witnesses we've seen so far. CM does seem less biased towards DU and more supportive of Sandie. But then again, previous witnesses have been completely biased

Another instance of 'she said, she said' but a slight hesitancy while she made sure she got it right.

IF she is sincere, I think CM is coming across as someone who was doing her best - which OK may not have been a great best - within the framework of attitudes and 'policies' around her.
She is the only one with any concern for SP, and appears to have asserted at the time and on record that she had no reservations about SP's practice as a nurse, even with trans patients.

I understand the logic if people are arguing for mixed sex spaces (whether or not I agree, it's coherent).

What I don't understand is the argument that the space was a women's changing room, but anyone should be able to use it.

Leaving aside the H&S rules (NHS Fife did when they came up with their guidance), The EA allows single sex provision if

"The service is likely to be used by more than one person at the same time and a woman might reasonably object to the presence of a man (or vice versa)."

The legislation specifies that the exemption is allowed because it may be reasonable to object to the presence of a man. But according to NHS Fife, no woman can ever know whether she is in the presence of a man.

And these people are expected to diagnose and treat serious illnesses and injuries?

I'm taking this as the general expression meaning 2 people giving different versions of events. Not that it is related to male/female

yeah it is amazing the lengths every one of them went to, to protect the FoE of this 1 man..

@CriticalCondition I thought she said "he" that time.

From TT

CM It was a diff mtg for all as SP was upset and the topics in the mtg [apologies meant SF above]
CM After the mtg and discussion with ED, I thought it might be a diff return and wanted to make it easier. SF said was prob v little we cld do to persude her to work elsewhere and we didnt have grounds to refuse her return to ED.
R Who do u normally remove from a work area?
CM Sometimes the [missed] but try to not suspend ppl
JR Why were u keen for her to return
CM Thought wld benefit her as she found awaiting an Ix stressful. And for getting back to routine. And was a she said/she said sitn. Later on I became aware of the ET situation.
JR Email from u to SP re Sx review update. What were u trying to say to her?
CM I wanted to explain we were trying to be supportive / give her a safety measure and wasnt punative to give her support. I told her verbally at the end of the mtg that I wanted to return her to work and discussed poss manners.
JR U discuss using public holiday hours?
CM I gave her the possiblilty of using these so she wldnt lose them
JR What about the phased return?

Throughout all of this, NC has remained motionless. Both hands on the table straight out, like some kind of prodigious legal minded sphinx. Notes, if they are being taken (and they are) are all being done internally, in the Cerebral Data Warehouse where she keeps such things. Her oversized ring sits proud of her middle finger - no lights or other markers betray the sophisticated technology within.

Note : I am not watching the stream.