NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

I hadn't realised that Neale Hanvey had such extensive experience in the health service -

'before starting a twenty-five year career in the National Health Service.[1][6] In 2005, he was appointed as the divisional nurse director for rare cancer at the Royal Marsden Hospital.[7] He has been a contributing author to medical textbooks'

CM seems to be more straightforward and forthcoming than any previous NHSF witness and what she says suggests she tried to be professional and even-handed. I don't think this cross-examination has done favours for the NHSF case.

If TT is correct I believe we have our first misgendering of the week?

It would be surprising if there weren't at least one NHS Fife employee who's been peaked by their involvement in this process, wouldn't it? I wonder whether Lottie Myles is one. I think "it was a she said she said situation" is likely to have been something she anticipated saying, so she will have decided to use "she" for BU, but I wouldn't assume that means she really thinks TWAW!

From TT:
"CM: Was the language of calling DU male. Now I understand why she may have used this terminology."

This is hilarious tbf.

Can anyone listening to the live stream confirm that TT's transcript is correct in CM referring to DU as "him"?

He said/She said is not referring to the sex of the people, it is a common saying FFS No need to change it.

CM is saying "no patient care concerns" so when did Fife reverse this and throw them in?

It does prima facie look like she tried to be even handed.

Or she's seen the queue of buses waiting for her to be chucked under and is fighting back.

Finally someone who knows their job.

This witness strikes me as more honest and fair-minded than the ones we've heard from so far.

"JR The Ix Policy, includes manager assessing risk to altering duties
CM Yes, I had in mind
JR In yr summary, plse read para 4. Why did u note this?
CM Was the language of calling DU male. Now I have an understanding why she may have used this terminology."

Words fail. I am raging. Suspended anyway.

Is that right? We say that in Geordieland, too and my sister's husband (from Leicester) says it - perhaps he's picked it up?

CM Not happy w him, but more to do with the event that happened. I was reassured she wldnt treat a T patient any differently than another. So felt her feelings were circumstantial to the sitn
CM Felt it best to keep them separated for both their safety and mental wellbeing. The version of events was difficult for both parties

She's coming across as a lot better than the others, assuming this is sincere.
Still grist for the other side's mill though, if she was the only one to think of SP's wellbeing in all this. if..

From TT

JR What was yr opin re how she felt about DU?
CM Not happy w him, but more to do with the event that happened. I was reassured she wldnt treat a T patient any differently than another. So felt her feelings were circumstantial to the sitn
JR Read these pages [reads re SP feeling sorry for TG and had no issues w them
CM I was reassured that no pat safety concerns re T patients
JR What about her working w DU?
CM Felt it best to keep them separated for both their safety and mental wellbeing. The version of events was difficult for both parties

Fifer : "mental wellbeing" is it aye? ane o them needed a police escort tae get tae thir caur, the ither ane finished her shift nae bother and managed without a blue light escort across the caur park.

CM I was reassured that no pat safety concerns re T patients
JR What about her working w DU?
CM Felt it best to keep them separated for both their safety and mental wellbeing. The version of events was difficult for both parties

Why are you raging at CM?

Maybe JR has reflected over the weekend that having her witnesses saying completely batshit things wasn't helping her case, and she had a quiet word with this one to 'tone it down'. 🤔🤣

Minor correction - this is direct examination. Cross examination will be when NC (or her junior) gets her turn.

Her understanding of the EA 2010 and the protections afforded to Gender appear to be in line with the pre SC clarification understanding pushed by Stonewall et al. I wonder if she looked at the legislation or at Stonewall et als interpretation of it?

JR Next is fitness to practice
CM I evaluated her safety to other patients and staff and felt there'd be no concerns on her return
JR Then the EA2010?
CM I had to look into it. It's quite a grey area and didnt want to treat either badly

I'm not sure she's helping NHS Fife's case much - from TT she recommended SP return to work, just not on shift with DU to avoid additional stress for both.

So why didn't that happen?

I love 'is it, aye'. Fifish for chinny reckon.🤔

She is saying NOW i have an understanding.. like maybe she didnt at the time and is just covering her own arse?!

CM They are entitled to FoE but not to be brought into the workplace

Oh dear, now she's blown it - DrU has FoE in the workplace to his heart's content, but SP hasn't?