NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

@GreenFriedTomato I think because it sounds like Miss Piggy if JR's pronunciation of Maya's surname is any indication.

Certainly went in with an open mind.

But she is telling their own counsel that they all had preconceived biases which is not helping them any..

From TT

JR Assessment criteria and other columns
CM The 3rd is about returning someone. Changing duties etc. We normally update it every 4 wks.
JR Temporary deployment is suggested because?
CM Staff might not be getting along. To take the pressure off someone by having them in an alt environment
JR Interest of other staff: no overlap w satff member who raised concerns..which negates uncomfortable sitns that may occur. why did u say that?
CM ED can be v stressful. Listening to both parties it was v difficult and wanted her return to be as seemless as pos
JR On p307, you reference Professional Codes, the LMC code is on p578. On 583 it says prioritising people. Practice effectively is another topic, as is preserve safety. Which bit of the code were u looking at?
CM All of them. It seemed to be she said/she said sitn

Fifer : She said she said. Wis it, aye? Let's keep that one in the back bin fur later.

I'll refrain from any comment until TT have posted, just to be on the safe side

”I wasnt surprised by req for MSP to attend as was used to this type of thing”

Is ‘MSP’ here Member of Scottish Parliament? Surely not. Had a look at the abbreviations but couldn’t see it…

JR On p307, you reference Professional Codes, the LMC code is on p578. On 583 it says prioritising people. Practice effectively is another topic, as is preserve safety. Which bit of the code were u looking at?
CM All of them. It seemed to be she said/she said sitn

'she said/she said' - she must have been repeating to herself all w/end I MUST NOT MISGENDER BETH..I MUST NOT MISGENDER BETH😁

This is the first time it was suggested that there were two sides to the story.
Fair play to CM if she really acted on that basis at the time..

Oh yes. For shatter. Who could forget

Aaah - she was speaking with the devil, stopping the hens laying.... consorting with trolls...

Fife's disciplinary process sounds more and more like a 17th Century witch trial 🙄🙄🙄

This witness seems to contradict previous Fife witnesses who claimed the suspension was due to changing room incident PLUS patient safety concerns. The whole pack of them are unreliable witnesses, misogynist and incapable of following their own complaint procedures.

Dr U has admitted that SP didn't mention a trans identified male rapist so Fife's other witnesses are either showing that Dr U lied to them, or lying themselves.

yes SP got advice from her local MSP - I think he was MP at the time?? Name escapes me, but he had a nursing background himself so useful support.

From TT:
"CM: ...it seemed to be she said/she said sitn"

Cannot eyeroll hard enough. 'She' ffs.
Also, no, because KS sent her emails to the other consultants, to ED condemning Sandie's actions and calling it a 'hate incident' and to Dr Upton reassuring him that she'd make sure he didn't have any more shifts with Sandie without even bothering to listen to what Sandie said.

Neale Hanvey

Yes her Member of Scottish Parliament

Her union refused to support her

Her colleagues were biased against her

There was no other legitimate means of support.

Most policies will say you can bring a colleague or union member to hearings/ meetings.

@Lunde Maybe they keep the ducking stool in the dungeon basement female changing room, mind you it would be a tight fit!

"Good afternoon,

I am writing to ask for clarification regarding the new Presidential guidance of open justic in employment tribunal proceedings in Scotland, particularly paragraph 46 which states

"Other journalists, commentators and members of the public who are observing a
hearing, whether in person or remotely, and who wish to use live, text based
communications during the hearing, must apply to the Tribunal for permission.
That application should be made in advance of the hearing if possible. If the
application is made on the day, it should be made to the clerk and not directly to
the Tribunal. The application will be considered by the Tribunal at the next
appropriate point in proceedings and may be refused if the Tribunal considers that
such live communication may interfere with the administration of justice. There
may be a delay in permission being granted if the application is made during the
hearing."

Does this mean that those of us watching the hearing remotely in a personal capacity must not discuss or comment on the ongoing proceedings in real time online, either by posting on social media, or on Mumsnet, for example, as we have done in the past?"

This was the email I sent.

I think it is amazing how open these women are to other women theoretically having any random man possibly watch them whilst undressing? And I think it is amazing how they would be open to other women theoretically having any random man possibly taking his member out in front of them. How damning they are of women who don’t want to be left open to voyeurism and flashing/exposure by random males. Doesn’t apply to their circumstances of course.

Well, I’m sure they’ll be open and inclusive and say any man now can change with them in their private changing areas. Seeing as all these men are wilting, sensitive little flowers. As women are so aggressive and threatening, and even make men feel unsafe.

Oh Naomi is going to have so much fun with this witness

JR seems to be doing NC's job for her.

No mention of the patient safety concerns yet despite NHSF still insisting that was the reason for the suspension?

Fifer : She said she said. Wis it, aye? Let's keep that one in the back bin fur later.

I thought it was a misprint at first. This witness clearly fully recognises DU as female and seems fluent with the pronouns. It would have been so easy to slip up and say "he".

We need NC to get her to repeat it 3 times quickly 😂

CM After discussion w SP I felt she'd always support a patients dignity, and had never had any complaints about her before. So wanted to lift the Sx.

I wanted her to feel supported.

So maybe she was the voice of fairness at the time?

Aye, isolating is a classic abusers tactic

From TT

CM After discussion w SP I felt she'd always support a patients dignity, and had never had any complaints about her before. So wanted to lift the Sx.
JR Want to look at p 309. SP [reads re moving to another dept] Who suggested this?
CM I did, in line w column 3 which I line managed (this dept). I wanted her to feel supported.
QM is in Dunbentley, which is 9-10 miles away.
JR Which wards do u manage?
CM Lists many incl renal. She wasnt partic happy w prospect of being moved, which I understood, as not her usual work. Onreflection it cld have been more disruptive to her. I was then perplexed about how to support her, so I looked at alternative shifts opposite to DU instead, which she seemed happy with.
JR Can we look at the conduct policy now? It refs temp redeployment to another role.
CM Yes, what I had in mind
JR The Ix Policy, includes manager assessing risk to altering duties
CM Yes, I had in mind
JR In yr summary, plse read para 4. Why did u note this?
CM Was the language of calling DU male. Now I have an understanding why she may have used this terminology.
JR What was yr opin

Fifer : Well the loddie's obviously male. Aw the transwomen are male, regardless of the hale transitionin thing, on which ah mak NAE COMMENT.