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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/07/2025 21:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
NebulousSupportPostcard · 20/07/2025 18:05

NebulousDog · 20/07/2025 16:32

@viques off the back of this thread I splashed out on a “Sharing Bag” of Maltesers with today’s Ocado order. They were supposed to sustain me next week, but I feel up to the challenge of dismantling a teacake with “no hands”.

You need a full out of town 40 screen cinema size pick n mix for what is to come (assuming we are still on for tomorrow's hearing)

Neverflyingagain · 20/07/2025 18:06

ThatCyanCat · 20/07/2025 15:28

Doesn't GMC allow doctors to chop and change their sex on the medical register? So how can we trust any investigation would be impartial?

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Not only that, you can register all over again and get a new GMC number! You can literally draw a line under your past. How many other professional regulators allow that?

Lins77 · 20/07/2025 18:14

I should maybe clarify that my ref to alleged sternness of demeanour wasn't in any way a criticism!

Neverflyingagain · 20/07/2025 18:15

JanesLittleGirl · 20/07/2025 15:43

I've been rushing to catch up so might have missed this but does anyone know what what time on Friday Baldrick dashed into NHS Fife PR office and announced "I have a cunning plan"?

He's not arrived yet. Stuck on the Edinburgh bypass in the holiday traffic.
If Baldrick had been involved there would have only been one version needed!

DustyWindowsills · 20/07/2025 18:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/07/2025 17:42

There are lots like that.

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That's awful.

I occasionally wander in out of curiosity, but I retreat quickly. The other week I saw a thread started by someone who was seeing GC stickers appearing in their neighbourhood (e.g. "a man is not a woman"). A poster said to be careful peeling them off because "they put razor blades under them". The top thread a couple of days ago was "I don't feel like a real woman". And why? Because they live in the UK, a hotbed of transphobia. Obviously not because they are actually male. One example they gave of transphobia was that they had held a door open for an old man, who then said "thank you son".

I feel sorry for these poor souls.

Neverflyingagain · 20/07/2025 18:27

FannyCann · 20/07/2025 16:23

My gut feeling is that she's going to be holding her head high and going back to her job that she was doing before all this blew up, because it's about the patients and doing right by them. They should have a whole band of pipers to play her in on the first shift back.

Whatever her longer term plans I sincerely hope she goes back and stares Kate Searle and others who cold shouldered her in the eye and enjoys a full on Julia Roberts/Pretty Woman "BIG MISTAKE" moment. She should probably struggle through the doors lugging several huge sacks of fan mail/ best wishes/Good luck/Thank you for taking one for the team cards and tip the whole lot out on the floor in the middle of the staff room.

Julia Roberts Big Mistake GIF

.

Manxexile · 20/07/2025 18:28

QueenAnnesHat · 20/07/2025 17:58

Courier article here
https://archive.is/YKBYt

I don't think that is it

Lougle · 20/07/2025 18:29

Going back to this exchange:

"NC - but you said he is in the dept enough to know Beth and because people saw him regularly, then you know that people only have to see Dr U to see he's not female.
LC No
NC Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man
LC Not at first, not until engaged in conversation. Not sure what diff"

Why couldn't NC have reminded LC that she was under oath and asked the question again? Is it really plausible that someone who had not been engaged in conversations with Dr Upton would be approaching them, thinking they were approaching a woman? No.

Waitwhat23 · 20/07/2025 18:29

DustyWindowsills · 20/07/2025 18:20

That's awful.

I occasionally wander in out of curiosity, but I retreat quickly. The other week I saw a thread started by someone who was seeing GC stickers appearing in their neighbourhood (e.g. "a man is not a woman"). A poster said to be careful peeling them off because "they put razor blades under them". The top thread a couple of days ago was "I don't feel like a real woman". And why? Because they live in the UK, a hotbed of transphobia. Obviously not because they are actually male. One example they gave of transphobia was that they had held a door open for an old man, who then said "thank you son".

I feel sorry for these poor souls.

Show quote history

Not the razor blade shite again. The last person who claimed this was caught out by Google image search, wasn't he?

Waitwhat23 · 20/07/2025 18:30

Lins77 · 20/07/2025 18:14

I should maybe clarify that my ref to alleged sternness of demeanour wasn't in any way a criticism!

Didn't think it was.

GreenFriedTomato · 20/07/2025 18:31

The other week I saw a thread started by someone who was seeing GC stickers appearing in their neighbourhood (e.g. "a man is not a woman"). A poster said to be careful peeling them off because "they put razor blades under them

I've seen this claim multiples times now on Reddit.

I have never heard of the GC side doing anything of the sort. It sounds more like something the 'hang Terfs' lot would do.

Charabanc · 20/07/2025 18:35

Lougle · 20/07/2025 18:29

Going back to this exchange:

"NC - but you said he is in the dept enough to know Beth and because people saw him regularly, then you know that people only have to see Dr U to see he's not female.
LC No
NC Are you saying you weren't aware he's a man
LC Not at first, not until engaged in conversation. Not sure what diff"

Why couldn't NC have reminded LC that she was under oath and asked the question again? Is it really plausible that someone who had not been engaged in conversations with Dr Upton would be approaching them, thinking they were approaching a woman? No.

I think you are missing NC's subtlety here. She has got LC to admit that Upton is a man.

Charabanc · 20/07/2025 18:36

GreenFriedTomato · 20/07/2025 18:31

The other week I saw a thread started by someone who was seeing GC stickers appearing in their neighbourhood (e.g. "a man is not a woman"). A poster said to be careful peeling them off because "they put razor blades under them

I've seen this claim multiples times now on Reddit.

I have never heard of the GC side doing anything of the sort. It sounds more like something the 'hang Terfs' lot would do.

I could quite believe that some TRAs would plant the razors, go to take down the stickers, then - oh no!

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 18:39

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 08:25

The stuff about the conflict of interest makes me wonder.

We are looking at the idea of that from a logical pov. But none of this case is logical.

And here's the thing; we understand what the best interests of NHS Fife are at this point quite clearly. Does JR and NHS Fife too? Or do they think their best interests are different to what we think their best interests are?! This is a mad question but one I have to reflect on at this point.

'Best interests' is defined as what is your priority and what is most important. We see it as reputation and integrity. But is it possible they view their integrity as a trans employer and their reputation as someone who supports trans rights as the most important thing even now? The statement on Friday would suggest that and reading through the history of JR on this, she may feel the same. In order for NHS Fife to remain in that position they have to keep fighting as they have to retain control of the narrative. They loss control of power over staff if they lose this. They will still have a scenario where key heads will roll and if those key heads think it's an all or nothing situation for them, the danger is they will carry on because they don't see it as self interest - they see themselves as integral to the Trust and how they can not be lost because otherwise they have failed the sacred caste! Are they all so locked into this bubble that they can't see the world as it looks to everyone else?

I just don't know at this point.

I think there is definitely a high chance that come Monday morning we will see another significant development in the case and another delay as new council is sought due to conflict of interest.

But I also have my doubts as to whether any of the above parties will see it that way too either! It's true 'through the looking glass' stuff and it's hard to know which way is up in the heads of these people.

That's how messed up this all is.

For everyone totally baffled by the idea that the board and the legal department signed off the statement, please reflect on what I said this morning.

They just don't get it / have nothing to lose at this point because they are so wedded to TWAW as a concept.

I am hoping they will continue to push on regardless in the morning, so that the case continues.

The more they push they harder they will fall.

It's another of those lose - lose situation for NHS Fife even Sandie Peggie actually manages to somehow lose this case. The public backlash with still being horrendous and NHS Fife's position untenable.

That they've not worked out they are in checkmate, is actually quite funny.

Lougle · 20/07/2025 18:39

Charabanc · 20/07/2025 18:35

I think you are missing NC's subtlety here. She has got LC to admit that Upton is a man.

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I'm not missing the subtlety, but she also lied about not clocking it before she spoke to him.

Neverflyingagain · 20/07/2025 18:41

nocoolnamesleft · 20/07/2025 17:27

She's an experienced A&E nurse. She must have vast experience at holding her shit together in the worst possible circumstances.

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I think it's also about age and experience. You get to our age and you've hardened externally, especially in keeping a professional face or mask in place.
I wonder whether there is pre-conditioning around 'typical female reaction' which has influenced how BU reacted, and whether hormone therapy perhaps is also at play?
Nonetheless, comparing the responses/reactions is rough. Especially when you're trying to say that someone wasn't affected and their 'victim' was so distraught etc etc etc.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 20/07/2025 18:43

KnottyAuty · 20/07/2025 15:08

THIS^
IN GREAT BIG CAPITAL LETTERS WITH FLASHING LIGHTS

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When Sandie Peggie wins her case it will open the floodgates for other claims. Anyone who has been impacted by NHS Fife allowing men in female changig rooms & toilets will be due compensation. The won't even need to go to an ET as a Letter Before Action for say £10,000 should be enough to see them cough up without a fight.

myplace · 20/07/2025 18:45

Justabaker · 20/07/2025 18:02

Wow. Sharing this as it’s so useful for anyone with a need to catch up!

ItisntOver · 20/07/2025 18:48

Such a familiar urban myth. <misty-eyed>. Who can forget the self-owning photographs, Duchess going down to one of the stations and checking out the complete lack of veracity concerning an alleged incident with the station staff.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3357096-Razor-blades-and-stickers-again?

Razor blades and stickers again | Mumsnet

A twitter account is saying that stickers in Manchester Oxford Road station have razor blades behind them put there by TERFS. If you are terfblocked y...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3357096-Razor-blades-and-stickers-again

Lunde · 20/07/2025 18:50

QueenAnnesHat · 20/07/2025 17:58

Courier article here
https://archive.is/YKBYt

I think this is the Herald's article not the Courier one

PlasticAcrobat · 20/07/2025 18:50

TimeForATerf · 20/07/2025 17:14

Yes! She looks like she’s off for a hack on a pit pony. Not really becoming of aristocracy. Although, as a late fifty something rider myself, as ive aged I have been increasingly grateful for safe plodders.

no excuse for her mucky boots. I assume the staff weren’t available.

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Is the guy behind her actually a centaur? All I can see is a human head & torso and some horsey feet.
Queering the interspecies boundary perhaps.

Neverflyingagain · 20/07/2025 18:51

@myplace I think it's because we have draconian policies about this at work, if you are found to have expressed any view that goes against the party line of trans rights rule, it's gross misconduct and you can end up in a whole heap of trouble for even looking the wrong way. So it was much easier to be a wee ostrich and hope my other half would calm down about it all.

Appalonia · 20/07/2025 18:54

I wonder if Free Speech Nation tonight will report on this? They've been excellent on GI issues, so hopefully they will...

DustyWindowsills · 20/07/2025 18:55

ItisntOver · 20/07/2025 18:48

Such a familiar urban myth. <misty-eyed>. Who can forget the self-owning photographs, Duchess going down to one of the stations and checking out the complete lack of veracity concerning an alleged incident with the station staff.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3357096-Razor-blades-and-stickers-again?

I suppose some idiots will believe anything. 😵

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 20/07/2025 18:56

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2025 10:08

After the Christmas Eve incident, Dr Upton wrote that they were "distraught."
"I feel attacked and cornered. I explained, this is the first time I’ve experienced anything like this in person."

Oh hello.

He was pre-conditioned.

Anecdote time.

When my brother was first transitioning he didn't want to tell me or my fiancé because he thought DH would be prejudiced.

It then became apparent that he was surrounded by a number of individuals who explained how badly they had been treated and then conditioned him to believe this to be what to expect. It was clear he'd been wound up into this state.

So it came out as overly defensive and actually aggressive because of HIS OWN prejudices. We literally didn't even KNOW never mind say a word! It was the first time paths had crossed and we hadn't opened our mouths and we're met with hostility.

His behaviour was intolerable and unacceptable. Even my mother was saying, to us, that he was way out of line, but also telling me I should put up with it because 'poor ickle hurt thing'. Her pandering to it and unwillingness to challenge him damaged our relationship because she expected me to play second fiddle and be a doormat.

And I said in no uncertain terms it was not acceptable behaviour and I wasn't going to put up with it, and that was nothing to do with identity and everything to do with being a twat. I said No.

It's exactly the same pattern.

Now this isn't the first time I've recounted this story on MN.

It's fascinating to see the same thing, potentially at the heart of this case.

I really really want this to unfold fully. Even more so now.

I'm so sorry for your experiences.
There was a spate a few years back of people thinking it was clever to share on Facebook something along the lines of "if your parents reject your gender identity, I'm your mother now". Absolutely hideous grooming behaviour that sets young people up to look for any tiny or imagined signs of rejection and has them claiming victim hood.
One of these people was not anyone I would want a young adult child of mine anywhere near. It was one of the smaller moments that set me thinking about how harmful and predatory this movement could be.

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