NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #33

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32

Yes, see also the university posters which said that if you feel someone isn’t in the correct “bathroom” you should ignore them and not look at them or show you are uncomfortable in any way “as they know better than you”.

Didn't Dr Pitt say they ED was fairly quiet on Christmas Eve?

Well. He posts that on Twitter. But I would be very surprised if, in a private room with a doctor seeking medical information from him about a very serious illness that might have sex specific presentation, he would maintain that he was biologically female.

The words of the gaslighting abuser throughout the ages.

Actually I think Fridays press release has probably damaged the staff at work in NHS Fife more than we first imagined.
I’m not surprised staff are terrified of another incident. If they are on the receiving end they fear suspension as a first line rather than last resort, and if they’re the manager involved they know the professionals who should be there to advise and support them are not only incompetent but don’t understand employment law!
What a shambles!

The ancestors of Jane Russell’s husband are as irrelevant to this entire matter as the fact that Sandie Peggie stayed in a hotel owned by Trump.

Why is outing a problem for them? Is it because they are ashamed to be "trans"?

I want to know if most typical women are born with a cervix or have to have one fashioned out of a defunct penis (allegedly).

And is it more typical for a female to be named Helen by their parents or to be named Jonathan?

Yes, that’s the origin of the original phrase “Peak Trans”, which MN have sometimes taken a dim view of in the past, probably due to complaints by TRAs. “Peaking”, “peaked”, “Sherpas” etc are all riffing on that use.

Yes! She looks like she’s off for a hack on a pit pony. Not really becoming of aristocracy. Although, as a late fifty something rider myself, as ive aged I have been increasingly grateful for safe plodders.

no excuse for her mucky boots. I assume the staff weren’t available.

💯

.

One comment describes NHS Carole Potter as the next Paula Vennels (of Post Office scandal infamy)

Why is outing a problem for them? Is it because they are ashamed to be "trans"?
Do they think they have fooled the rest of the population? Do men (y'know ordinary blokes) recognise them?

@Needspaceforlego @N0Tfunny others may have replied to this by now (I've not read to the end of page 24 yet).

Jane Russell KC is an English barrister. She is not registered at the faculty of advocates in Scotland. Nor is Naomi Cunningham who is also a barrister.

IANAL but my imperfect understanding this that employment law is one of the few areas where English barristers can work in Scotland. For other fields you need Scottish counsel in a Scottish court. There are some people working who have dual rights of audience with both the English and Scottish courts ie. they are both an advocate and a barrister.

My understanding (and this is based solely on a pub conversation with an advocate) is that it is easier to get audience rights in Scotland as an English barrister as they essentially grandfather you in after making sure you know the law whereas advocates going south are expected to do a whole pupillage.

Initial training pathways differ between the two nations too. My understanding (might be wrong)...

In Scotland it goes Law degree - > diploma of legal practice -> 2 year training contract -> registration as solicitor. Then people either go straight to the Bar (early entry) or they practice often in a specialist area for around 10-15 years and then go to the bar (mid career entry).
Bar training is a one year unpaid course, during which time they are taught advocacy skills and shadow practicing advocates "devilling". At the end of the year they get admitted as advocates, typically join one of the five stables and start building their practice.

In England you don't have to qualify to be a solicitor first , so can do the bar advocacy course straight out of university, then complete a competitive pupillage to get registered. Hopefully someone who understands the english system will come along to pad out my inadequate knowledge!

I'm not sure if there is anyone at the Scottish bar who has a lot of experience with GC cases which is why english counsel keep being used. I'd love to know which KC was sitting next to TT early on in this sitting as I have my suspicions from GC twitter that there is at least one prominent scottish silk interested in this area (and cynically in my experience all advocates will try build their practice/ earning capability by developing unique skills)....

The other day I saw a rather creepy thread with TRAs grooming a 14 year old girl who wanted her breasts removed.

True. He is something else, that's for sure

I've not been able the read the latest article from the Courier, and I'm seriously considering subscribing, so I decided to check out the (TWAW) National and found this

https://archive.ph/XwIw8

https://www.thenational.scot/news/25325960.nhs-fife-staff-facing-violent-threats-amid-sandie-peggie-tribunal/

It's an apparently uncritical report on the statement Fife released on Friday, Sex Matters insinuations and all. Just shows however Fife revises it they cannot unring that bell.

Also a comment piece on how twansphobic the Labour Party are

https://archive.ph/Sxoxk

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/25326400.labour-targets-trans-rights-scotland-can-better/

Because we don't have enough to read 😃

Given how widely the original has been shared NHS Fife can not get away with the old ‘but we changed it later’ excuse.

I really hope MF and the Sex Matters gang go for a libel case against them. Dreadful behaviour by Fife.

He is. An intervention is required

Thank-you very much for your detailed explanation. Most appreciated.

I wondered too who was watching 👀 maybe getting ready for a deluge to come. Because this cannot be the only case women have pretty much been bullied into putting up and shutting up. (OK nobody successfully bullied Sandie into shutting up but they tried beyond belief)

Good Lord, really?

I wonder how many G&Ts Jane Russell has knocked back this weekend trying to decide a strategy for next week with 2 uncontrollable clients - Fife who keep jumping in and undermining their whole case as a "reasonable employer" of SP and DU who has essentially backtracked from all the "patient care concerns" 🍸🍸🍸

These comments about Sandie Peggie being stern, not visibly upset when discussing the conversation in the cr, and then DU being in floods of tears is yet more stereotyping. DU has a “feminine” reaction with tears and shaking. Sandie was stern and unfazed -apparently. Do they not know people show their emotions different ways? Sandie could have been shaken to her core but able to keep up appearances in public. She may not be a teary sort of person. DU on the other hand could be genuinely upset or creating his story. I find comparing their reactions really objectionable. I’d probably appear unmoved, just because I don’t cry. It’s a stupid way to judge people’s internal emotions.

Well technically he does have one, if we're talking about his neck