Swivel eyed transphobes

[TonTonMacoute]

Apparently it's people who don't believe you can magically change sex who are the loonies! Who knew?

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/07/19/transphobes-swivel-eyed-says-labour-mp-leaked-audio/

That's a huge generalisation!

I know the kind of gay man you are referring to, thatsthewayitis, and I can see that the whole trans thing would appeal to them, the drag and the glitter and the misogyny.

But most gay men are just ordinary people getting on with life.
I've known many gay men who are very strong supporters of women, and of feminism, they all have mothers and sisters and aunties and many of them have women friends, so to suggest that they are all remote from women's lives or worse still that 'most of them despise women' is unfair.

As for gay men being 'blind spot to the needs of women and children' ? Straight men on the other hand are so very much in tune to the needs of women and children, aren't they?😏

Frankly, I think you’d get change from a ha’penny with that chap.

I’ve been out for a walk reflecting on this. If I ask Tim Roca for his definition of a “swivel-eyed transphobe”, is he going to a) dodge the question or b) dodge the question and say something about TWAW? or c). Just not reply

i think I’ll probably go with c.

From what you said about his previous form of not replying, I think c is the most likely outcome too. 😒

I think that's why it's so important to look him in the eyes as you ask.

I've been planning a visit to my own useless TRA sexist arsehole of an MP (Labour, natch) as he's similarly dismissive or absent on email.

This might be the perfect excuse.

I think we should also acknowledge that there are many ordinary trans people just getting on with their lives just as there are many gay and straight people just getting on with their lives. Of course we pick up on the ones that behave badly whether trans, gay or straight but most people in general do not behave badly. My hope is that the ordinary trans people will speak up and drown out the loud disruptive voices, and agree with single sex spaces, sports etc so that everyone can just get back to living their lives. I know trans people who hate the way they are being represented but they're not used to putting themselves forward and making a noise. That must change. I think one problem perhaps for the older trans people is that they were told that living as a woman or man meant using things like toilets for the opposite gender. Obviously this was never right but I can see that it's an adjustment.
Back to this MP though, does he really think talking about the general public in this way is going to help his cause?!

I don't accept an equivalence between 'ordinary lesbian and gay people' and 'ordinary trans people'.

Being lesbian or gay does not impose on the rest of society any demand to go along with a biological impossibility, to impinge on women's rights, to misuse language, etc., which being trans does.

The issue with transgenderism is not whether some trans people 'behave badly' or not, the issue is the very basis of trans ideology which depends on denial of scientific reality.

It does seem to me that straight men, generally, have more awareness and sensitivity as to why women might require the privacy and dignity of single sex spaces, whreas many gay men just don't! Maybe it is gay men who are really into the whole 'queer scene' thing who can't see what the issue is.

I post on a very male dominated forum ( 95% men..and large percentage of those are gay) and it is the ones for whom being gay is a major part of their identity that have been the most vile and hateful whenever i've brought up the issue of women's rights and protections. They cannot see past trans rights and have actually come out with some pretty sexist, misogynistic comments in defence of them.

That's not my experience of gay men, but maybe we just move in different circles

One circle I most definitely do not move in is online fora, but it wouldn't surprise me that there are sexist, misogynistic pro-trans comments on a male-dominated forum.

I definitely know the type. I think of them as "the Colins" because, for some reason, a high percentage of those I know seem to be called Colin.

They fall into definite categories - heavily involved in "the scene", often plugged into activist circles, fully signed up to queer identity, often having lives where they rarely interact with women. There are some other traits there.

They have very little in common with normie gay men who I know who are just quietly living in suburbia with their husbands, working normie jobs, having normie hobbies.

But you're assuming all trans people believe they can actually change sex which many don't believe and that they are all trying to get into women's spaces which just isn't true. It's an over generalisation because of the bad apples. Most trans people are just wanting to live and ordinary life and not draw attention to themselves or foist themselves on women or men as the case may be. We could bring up plenty of examples of gay people who have committed vile acts in the same way we can point to plenty of straight people who have also done the same heinous acts. It really isn't right to bunch a whole group of people together and say they are wrong just because some of them are. There are lots of people who may be gay or straight who's opinions or actions I find abhorrent but that doesn't mean I think everyone else is the same.

I'm not sure what on-line fora is? I post on an urbanism and architecture forum besides this one, if that is what you refer to? ( forums)?

I have a couple of older gay male friends, my age......who I first met in my teens, and both have also been taken by surprise at the advent of trans ideology...but because they still associate to some extent in 'queer' circles they are a bit torn.
They understand my persepctive, but also simultaneously wish there was " more tolerance" ( whatever that means in the context of single sex spaces and so on)...

The gay men on the urbanism forum are mostly younger...maybe that is why they are so hostile....? although there is one guy, late 40's, who is sympathetic...even though he tends to come at the whole issue from a very intellectual angle...and I'm not sure he really understands the 'finer sensibilities' that motivate women. My experience even of the gay friends I have is that they still tend to understand things through a predominantly 'masculine' lens when it comes to sex, sexuality etc

I like men, generally, and I find that men that actually like women are far more sensitive.....and that does include lots of straight men.

Hmm, so we're having Not my gay Nigel...
How many women here have a lesbian friend as opposed to a gay one hmm?

Straights like to think there is a happy unified LGB...it's nonsense.
Gay men and Lesbians have nothing in common. We despise each other.
Especially now after the sterling work lesbians did for gay men, nursing, caring, advocating for them during AIDs. When we turned to gay men for support around 2015 in the face of Trans they did Zero, they ran the LGBT orgs and supported the men. That's why this gay MP Tim Roca doesn't surprise us in the least. It's the norm and we've known for a long time..
We're also disgusted by what Pride turned into: a perverse debauched display of sexuality and fetishes. Plus the creep of former PIE supporters worming their way into the LGBTQ tent: and they're male...There's no safeguarding. The lesbians I know are now against gay men adopting or fostering children.
and the quiet gay couples, well gay men have no problem with random sex with other men in a committed relationship. Chemsex is the biggest problem in the gay community.
And frankly I don't care.

Many (many) years ago I thought I’d just been really unlucky that every trans identified males I came across were at best creepy and at worst sexually abusive in their behaviour towards me. I hadn’t read much and trying to be a good liberal ally. But it became increasingly difficult to not wonder why I was so unlucky so I started to educate myself. I came to the conclusion it was a feature not an exception and I’ve yet not met any trans identified males IRL that I would regard as ‘ordinary’ people. Whereas I would regard all of the gay and lesbian people I’ve met as ‘ordinary’ people.

I think where we differ is that I don't have any opinion about individual trans people as being lovely, awful, ordinary, outrageous, bad apple, good apple, whatever; I don't assess transgenderism - or any ism for that matter - on how nice or abhorrent individual adherents are - I assume trans people are are a mixed bunch, as we all are.

I don't disagree with transgenderism because of any 'heinous acts' any individuals have done, I disagree with it because it is based on the idea that humans can change sex, and because I disagree with men appropriating women's identity.

All transgender people, by definition, profess the belief that humans can change sex, and all transwomen are men who claim to be women, and I object to that - it's nothing personal, its a matter of principle.

Really? So you haven't read and heard about all the gay paedophiles? A homophobes view is often that all gay people are paedophiles because of those ones. And as for straight men, do we assume they're all domestic abusers and murderers because that is so common? I know perfectly ordinary trans/ gay and straight people. You really can't lump everyone in together because of the actions of some of them.

I really don't agree that they all believe they can change sex, I think most of them will be more intelligent than that. As for whether they adopt a feminine/ masculine appearance etc I couldn't care less. But it's time for the quiet ordinary ones now to take the reins and show that they can respect single sex spaces, sports and all the other things where it's important. The SC court ruling has been a jolt for some I'm sure but if the majority can be respectful that's the only way forward now. So that's what I'm hoping for. The loud mouths must be seeing that their way isn't going to wash anymore.

I completely agree that equating being transgender is no different from being homosexual is the very first big deception in the whole TRA argument.

Genuinely gay, you are sexually attracted to people of your own sex.

Genuinely trans. What does that mean? You can call yourself Dolores/Derek, dress differently, take hormones, undergo the most horrendous surgery, and you are still the sex you were born.

This is bad enough when applied to adults, but teachers are encouraging children in this delusion, even in primary schools, and behind the backs of and against the wishes of the children's own parents. Something that I assume Tim Roca, an elected MP, is thoroughly in favour of.

Lots of people adopt an appearance that doesn't correspond to the stereotype of the sex they were born into - me, for instance - and that's fine, but there's a difference between gender-non-conforming people like me, and people who present as the opposite sex, whether or not they actually believe 'TWAW'.

If the quiet ordinary intelligent transwomen do not believe they have really changed sex and are now women, what is their motive for trying to 'pass', ie. wanting people to think they are women, when they know it's not true?

And I don’t assume any of those groups you mentioned are because of a few but I do wonder why without exception every single trans identified male I’ve met IRL has been sexually creepy, including young males which surprised me and depressed me at the time. I don’t believe every single trans identified male is sexually creepy I’ve engaged in discussion with some online that seem pleasant people but I’ve not met them IRL.

That said I had to wonder what % are that I’ve never met one in person that isn’t? I very much wanted to believe I was just very unlucky years ago as I said I was an uninformed ally then but eventually I couldn’t convince myself anymore. If that offends you so be it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Having noticed that pattern and then read about the acronym I’m unsure whether we can name it here it made more sense. Again if that view offends you I can live with that.

I’ve never knowingly met any trans identified females so have no personal view.

I’ve sent my email to Tim. Not holding my breath for a response. I did make myself listen to the recording again so I could quote him correctly. Listening to it again there were new things that annoyed me. He talks about some what’s app group being their safe space and how upset and angry they were when this was breached. They’ve got a different what’s app safe space now so that’s ok. But does he not see the quite obvious parallels with other groups who might want real (not just virtual) safe spaces for more important reasons. He also talked about the importance of rationality and compassion. There was simply none of that
present in his words. Rather the opposite.

I’ve discovered via X that it’s possible to make a complaint to the Labour Party so I might try that tomorrow. Again might not achieve much but worth it to me to express my thoughts.

Well done, if people don't even try to speak out or hold their elected officials accountable for what they do and say, nothings going to change.
If he doesn't answer then that's on him and is just more proof of how useless he is a representative.
Registering a complaint with the Labour party about what he said seems fair, they are after all responsible for making sure the people who are their MP's act according to the rules.

All trans people, by definition, are pretending to be the opposite sex. So even if they are sane enough to know that they can't change sex, a man who calls himself a 'transwoman' is pretending to be some sort of woman, rather than a type of man.

If he just wanted to be a gender non-conforming man he could do that - it's the appropriation of womanhood by men which is the problem. It doesn't matter how nice he is as a person in other respects, if he's pretending to be a woman that's offensive to all women. 'Woman' is not a costume.

A man playing dress up as a woman is perpetuating stereotypes. He's reinforcing the idea that women should look or behave a certain way, that there are certain attributes (other than a female body) which makes someone a woman. If he likes wearing dresses, high heels and make up, fine (as long as he doesn't have fake breasts or wear an outfit so tight or skimpy that we can all see how much he enjoys wearing his costume). He doesn't have to pretend to be a woman to do this.

On the politics side of things I think I did the numbers at the time. If you added together the Conservative and Reform votes, Tim would still have won, but by a very slim margin. Can’t remember exactly what the numbers were.

The demographic of the town is definitely changing. There’s definitely a younger, trendier crowd now (there’s a Gail’s and everything!). It’s changed a lot from a relatively small, working class mill town surrounded by farms.

glad someone else picked up the ablist comment about a vision condition/disability. And a pejorative about mental health conditions too. Same mentality as racists really. Which sadly is the only IST that seems to count.