NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

Sitting on my hands again. Very hard.

Same. Same.

In fairness, eh, Gary, Elvsie done good for the Gaffer - lovely feet, give her the ball and a yard of grass and she'll give you a move with a perfect pass😄

There's plenty of people on Reddit (thread got locked) claiming Sandie is racist because she supposedly supports Trump.

It's obviously irrelevant to the Tribunal but it's a way to smear women who complain about single sex as just being generally bigots.

It sounds like a nasty environment tbh. Sure you've got workplace gossip but saying someone's a racist is a bit much.

She does seem like someone who might have said something about smelly food in the kitchen. And then someone decided that was racist.

Edit: I told them to look up the definition of racism and see if Trump was under there, and told them this sort of attitude drives people to the far right in the UK.

I am angrily muttering at the screen

From TT

We resume
NC Picking up first thing you had heard about. (sound very poor)
LC - I don't recall anything being relayed to me at the time
NC - (again sound poor) p463
NC - again sound very poor
J - ? 5, 9 and 10 read now?
NC - yes
Reading from bundle
NC - so you say nothing in that interview, what you've heard about SP views, politcal and social
LC - I answered in Q10 but not gone into depth I didn't specifically mention but just said strong beliefs.
NC - didn't accuse of racism? Is it because her views had no relevance
NC - you were taken to p549 which gives eg of bullying behav from policy. Can you tell us what it was that KS told you that you think was threatening behavior
(LC) Told me DU was intimidated and scared. She didn't give specific eg but I felt serious enough if Dr felt i
NC ref p583 you refer as relevant respect for human rights. Did you give any thought for any breach of SP human rights.
(LC) I wasn't expecting her to do this, there were alternatives.
NC - or putting to her the choice that she had to exclude herself from the room she'd used for ..several decades
LC - I thought she'd escalate further if she wanted to She didn't phrase it as a grievance or ask for it to be official, not an email, just conv
NC - your answer to my q was that she had alternatives. That seems to accept that if she changed in the f room that

The A Team music is playing, that must mean, Hannibal is back on the job!

(by which I mean NC, not me!)

My family members are various emergency services. Two of them struggle with the smell of a certain food ( not curry) as it's a reminder of certain unpleasant events they attended.

So I don't cook it when I have them over. That doesn't make them evil and bigots.

She does seem like someone who might have said something about smelly food in the kitchen. And then someone decided that was racist.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

No please..understand I really appreciate and respect all you do. It just seemed like such an important (and scandalous).point. but I appreciate it's not an easy job and thank you

"Can be used by any member of staff" means a) not a safe & dignified changing space for women, and b) Dr Uptonogood would be entitled to follow SP there.

He’s also white, Scottish and male. All protected as race (colour and nationality), and sex.

@BezMillsAs I am using the app I cannot ❤️ your posts so please just accept ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ in advance

Yes! this is what I think too.

From the testimony mentioning food and racism gossip.

I didn't mean it critically I meant she's obviously capable of politely standing up for herself and making requests of colleagues.

It's close to something I've seen happen, unfortunately.

A lot of people would just not confront a colleague about that, same as in the changing room, but of how it might be construed.

Said person was microwaving fish, the smell stuck for days. They saw it as not quite racism but close enough, cultural intolerance, very angry etc. etc.

Which is silly for many reasons like all cultures eat fish we just don't microwave it in a communal microwave...

But it doesn’t fit under any of the three legally defined categories. If you don’t fit into one of those categories you can’t claim that PC.

Alternatively you could consider the law to say you must identify as asexually straight, asexually bisexual, or asexually homosexual.

Straight talking?

Unwilling to suffer in silence?

Lurking

Presumably no lockers or loos so no good in the situation Sandie found herself in in the incident.

I vaguely recall Judge has asked about these "alternatives" in detail in February.

The more controversial or sensational the evidence or questions - the more we would want to be sure before we reported the literal words. I was reporting on evidence given by the vice-chair of the Bar Standards Council in the Allison Bailey's tribunal. She compared the Cotton Ceiling workshop to Nelson Mandela attempting to create good race relations by winning the rugby world cup. The first time she said it I tweeted something innocuous, the second time I was more specific the third time I got it in word for word - at the expense of the next Q&A.

And I had good sound. We have had 2 near misses with being banned, I am assuming the reporter was not trusting what she had heard and erred on the side of caution.

The only reason Sandie stayed at a Trump hotel ( which is why all this Trump support crap is happening) is because Fife nhs had a holiday deal for nhs staff to stay at the hotel.

I complained about smelly food in my kitchen at work. It was my colleague microwaving smoked fish. He was a heterosexual man from Edinburgh.

The first thing DH asks me when he comes home is about this case. I can’t wait to tell him about the big bloke being intimidated by the little nurse with hurty words.

NC - your answer to my q was that she had alternatives. That seems to accept that if she changed in the f room that ..she would be changing with a man
LC- she would be on diff shifts to doctor, had alternatives
NC- re special leave decision turn to page 732, that's your account you sent to ED on 14 Feb 24. It's right that this reflects your recollection in your words not verbatim.
NC it's not exact
LC - to give me prompts in future
NC- eg of this in last para - she told me she had confronted the dr and advised she should not be in there because she is not female. But SP says he doesn't she?
LC - I don't recall.
NC - SP didn't use word confront?
LC - I wouldnt have written if not
NC - but you said this is your interpretation?
LC it's plausible but I don't have a recollection
NC - interview with Angela Glancy (sp?) talks about this and
LCs response Is that response the gist of what had happened from KS as far as you knew
(missed answer)
NC this is consistent with your answer 14 Feb? the last papa that - official complaint, confronted the Dr and advised shouldn't be in CR, told other staff feel the same. Both of those are consistent account of the essential features of the complaint, aren't they?

Fifer : A notice NC has gey clean hauns. The kin a rosy scrubbed clean ye only get after using swarfega to clean them, mebbe eftir haundlin det cord...

LC can you repeat
NC- (repeats)
LC - yes they are
NC presumably that was the gist you gave to Jamie
LC yes
NC that was the basis of the decision to put her on special leave
LC - he felt it was serious enough
NC - as a result of that you phoned her LC - yes
NC - that allegation is what we see, that she had approached a trans id man in the CR and shouldnt' be there because he's a woman. Nothing there about her manner
LC -no just the doctor was feeling after
NC - so she was put on leave because the dr was male
LC - not it was made because of how the dr was made to feel and in line with code of conduct.
NC - now it is right that any normal employee who's told there is an allegation against them would be intimidating and humlitating

NC has a new ring. It is dull grey and thick, technological, like maybe one of those bluetooth health rings.

Or a remote control device of some kind.

Thanks I was planning to check that but wasn't sure. At any rate, thread got locked. I am mixed race, so have that advantage even telling people they are being twats 😜

People go there because they want to play golf, not because they love Trump. It's such a stupid accusation they're making.

There's a saying that 'Nurses eat their own'

But they should really stick together because they end up getting eaten by the doctors.

LC might want to remember that. What an absolute *. but I've been there and got the T-shirt.