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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 17:05

WannabeEDIOfficer · 18/07/2025 16:59

It's strange. I have used that sort of insurance to defend an ET claim, but you can't go rogue or you risk losing the indemnity (is that the right word, I am hot and tired.) They must have the statement through legal before publishing.

Edited

There is no insurance company involved, just a scheme whereby Scottish health authorities pay into a pool to share their costs for legal claims.

nauticant · 18/07/2025 17:05

MyrtleLion · 18/07/2025 17:01

If I were JR, I'd be advising them to settle by Monday. If the judge is pissed off with them, Sandie's settlement will be even bigger than we expect.

I honestly don't know how Sandie can go back and work in that hospital with these witnesses.

This is how the settlement discussions would go:

NHS Fife: Would it be possible for you to agree to settle?
Claimant: Possibly. Here's a list of what we would require to be open to settling.
NHS Fife: We can't agree to any of that.
Claimant: See you in the hearing room on Monday then.

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 17:05

ThreeWordHarpy · 18/07/2025 17:04

I’ve just caught up and speed read most of the past hours worth of posts.

That NHS Fife statement is totally because Maya transcribed the emails that Fife didn’t want anyone to see.

if anyone is familiar with the current Nationwide adverts, I’m imagining someone senior who is very like the Dominic West character having an enormous meltdown and instructing that statement to be put out. The PR department is either incompetent, or ignored. Has no one at NHS Fife heard of the Streisand Effect?!

ooh I hadn't. thanks

The Streisand effect is the phenomenon where an attempt to hide, remove, or censor information online actually ends up increasing public awareness of that information, often due to media attention and the spread of the information across the internet. The term originates from singer Barbra Streisand's 2003 attempt to suppress photographs of her Malibu residence, which inadvertently drew far more attention to the pictures than they had previously received.

KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 17:07

Hoardasurass · 18/07/2025 17:05

I'm wondering if the threats are coming from the tras as they were really upset about NHS Fife witnesses misgendering dr Upton

I thought IB?

  • Queer Mysognists/TRAs because she wasn't a good enough ally and/or
  • Straight Mysognists because she said she didn't know her own sex
teawamutu · 18/07/2025 17:07

NHS Fife's demented statement reminds me of a Charlie Brooker column describing a particularly irritating character as 'someone who pisses on their own cornflakes, then bursts into tears because they taste funny'.

WannabeEDIOfficer · 18/07/2025 17:07

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 17:05

There is no insurance company involved, just a scheme whereby Scottish health authorities pay into a pool to share their costs for legal claims.

Ahh that makes sense

BezMills · 18/07/2025 17:09

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 16:46

The Firth of Forth?

A similar bit of water but not that one!

ParmaVioletTea · 18/07/2025 17:12

I'm trying to follow what's happened today, in between trying to put together a terfy webinar slide set for a talk I'm doing, so not quite following. I read the Fife statement on Twitter/X - it is quite demented - can one of you clever women (not distracted by trying to do several things at once) summarise what's going on????

Is Fife doubling down? Have Dr Upton's supporters thrown their toys out of the pram?

Solidarity & gin to anyone who can explain ... Gin

zanahoria · 18/07/2025 17:12

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 17:03

Sandie doesn't have to settle and I hope she doesn't. We need the ruling and the judge's remarks.

I am guessing Fife know that she will not settle so they will not make an offer. They are in an impossible situation now, they are going to lose but a refused offer would be just another humiliation.

nauticant · 18/07/2025 17:17

There seems to be confusion over when the hearing ends. I'm sure that, before the break, it was (at least scheduled to be) evidence ending on 28 July and then 2 days of closing submissions.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1890417211082248447

Does anyone have any more up-to-date information than that?

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Igneococcus · 18/07/2025 17:18

I've not had a chance to follow this at all today (hell of a day), is there anywhere that has a summary of what happened, ideally in bullet points, that I can understand even after several caipirinhas?

DrBlackbird · 18/07/2025 17:18

LarkLaneAgain · 18/07/2025 16:25

Fife are trying to nobble Naomi Cunningham as well as smear Sex Matters, Sandie and all Terfs. They've nothing left so have gone full dirty tactics.

You know in spooky films when the priest throws the Holy Water on the Demons and they writhe and self combust? Fife's press release reminds me of that.

Who the hell with an ounce of brain would want to go work for this NHS Trust now? The tribunal seems to point to an incredible incompetence at best (no due process, no systemic and careful review of evidence) but vindictive and incapable of acknowledging mistakes at worst. No wonder there are so many medical scandals.

PestoHoliday · 18/07/2025 17:18

ExitPursuedByABare · 18/07/2025 16:55

@PestoHoliday

Do you have a recipe for the courgette fritters please?

It's a bit of a cobbled together thing - grated courgettes with a bit of salt in a weighted sieve to get as much liquid out as possible. Mix the squeezed courgette with a bunch of finely chopped spring onions (including the green), mint, feta garlic, beaten egg, black pepper and enough flour to make a very wet batter. (Gram flour also works)

Splodge it into a frying pan with hot oil. Cook for 2-4 minutes or so and gently turn over and cook the other side.

NeedToChangeName · 18/07/2025 17:18

zanahoria · 18/07/2025 17:12

I am guessing Fife know that she will not settle so they will not make an offer. They are in an impossible situation now, they are going to lose but a refused offer would be just another humiliation.

I think Fife would have been desperate to settle, perhaps with NDA and certainly no admission of fault

And SP would have rejected that, holding out for nothing less than complete exoneration in public. Fife are probably now in so deep they have to continue and blame the judge if they lose, rather than make any concession

Someone upthread made the point that, in context of overall spending, the legal fees in this case are a small proportion. That's true. But it's still a shedload of money that could and should have been better spent elsewhere. We're all paying for this

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 17:22

From Boswelltoday on X
Day 3 | PM Session | Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton

🧊 “She Had Alternatives”: NHS Fife Weaponised Policy Against a Woman Who Spoke the Truth

By the end of Day 3’s afternoon session, the shape of NHS Fife’s disciplinary logic stood exposed: a woman nurse raised a sex-based concern, a man said he felt uncomfortable—and only one of them was removed from the workplace. That woman was Sandy Peggie. The man was Dr Upton. And the witness who laid bare the institutional machinery behind this decision was her line manager, Louise Curran.

Under cross-examination by Naomi Cunningham KC, Curran confirmed what no policy document had dared say aloud: NHS Fife’s interpretation of “inclusivity” now demanded that gender-critical belief be treated as misconduct.

Curran had not witnessed the disputed incident in the female changing room. She did not recall being told of any raised voice or threat. She relied solely on an account relayed to her by a doctor—that Dr Upton had been left “upset” and “scared” after being told by Peggie she shouldn’t be there. That was enough.

Curran and senior manager Jamie Doyle reviewed workplace policies—not patient safety reports, not grievance procedures. They turned to the bullying and harassment guidance and the NMC code of conduct. Within 24 hours, Peggie was on “special leave.” No formal complaint had been submitted. No version of events had been requested from Peggie herself. No statement had been taken from Upton.

When Cunningham pointed out that this amounted to disciplinary action based on a male colleague’s feelings, Curran responded flatly: “She had alternatives.” Peggie, who had used the main female changing room for decades, could go to the basement. Or the toilets. The male colleague, Upton, had the “right to be there.” The woman was expected to move.

Curran admitted this. She confirmed that Peggie had not refused to work with Upton. That she hadn’t made an official protest. That she had not breached any written protocol. Her only act was to state her belief—a belief grounded in biology and protected in law—that Upton, a male, should not be changing in a space designated for women.

That belief, said Curran, breached the NMC code.

Emails revealed how quickly NHS Fife’s institutional support closed around Upton. Senior clinicians and nursing staff were copied into correspondence affirming his right to use the changing room. Louise Curran was among the recipients. At no stage was Peggie’s side of the story shared with the same reach. She was not defended. She was not asked to clarify. She was simply removed.

Cunningham probed this imbalance: “So the decision to place her on leave was because of her gender-critical belief?” Curran hesitated. Then agreed. Yes, it was her belief—and the way it had made Upton feel.

That was the standard now.

Curran conceded that Upton did not wear a badge or tell colleagues he was trans. Nurses were expected to intuit this—and remain silent. She also acknowledged that staff who had suffered male violence in the past might be especially attuned to the presence of a man. Still, any expression of discomfort would be treated as harassment if the man in question identified otherwise.

This was not about policy. It was about obedience.

Peggie did not conform. She spoke. For that, she was suspended, accused, and quietly isolated while a male colleague—backed by HR, EDI advisers, and senior clinical staff—was shielded from scrutiny. The woman was the problem. Her rights, beliefs, and dignity were optional.

The tribunal continues. But after Louise Curran’s testimony, NHS Fife’s priorities are no longer in doubt: protect the narrative, suppress dissent, and punish women who see what they’re not supposed to say.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 18/07/2025 17:22

It would be delicious if the judge regarded the NHS Fife statement as contempt & demanded that Carol Potter appear before him Monday to purge that contempt.😀

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 17:24

Igneococcus · 18/07/2025 17:18

I've not had a chance to follow this at all today (hell of a day), is there anywhere that has a summary of what happened, ideally in bullet points, that I can understand even after several caipirinhas?

Have a look at Boswelltoday post above for pm.

Gymnopedie · 18/07/2025 17:24

So to summarise the statement:

The fact that NHS Fife is a laughing stock is absolutely nothing to do with them, or anything their staff have or have not done. It's all the fault of those meanies at Sex Matters and if they'd just crawl under a rock where they belong everything would be just dandy.

RayonSunrise · 18/07/2025 17:24

Well, I’ve now gone from thinking that NHS Fife had a few bad apples who worked together to protect a white middle class male doctor at the expense of a middle aged nurse who just didn’t want to change in front of a man, but thanks to that statement I’m now regarding the entire organisation as corrupt right to the top. There’s no way back for them after that, is there? If this is what they are like for one trans junior doctor, imagine how they would handle an actual medical scandal?!

Largesso · 18/07/2025 17:26

Just reading the very defensive press release from NHS Fife when tribunal recommenced. Given the evidence so far how can they possibly claim this with a straight face - ‘The Health Board has a responsibility to fully investigate where concerns are raised about the conduct of any of its employees, in accordance with established policies and procedures. The act of investigating a concern does not assume any wrongdoing.An internal disciplinary investigation is not of itself punitive in nature and exists to fairly assess concerns raised by establishing facts.’

https://x.com/mrmalky/status/1946224037170155915?s=46&t=OcVj6Ek4vpx69DdiZCpI2g

https://x.com/mrmalky/status/1946224037170155915?s=46&t=OcVj6Ek4vpx69DdiZCpI2g

anyolddinosaur · 18/07/2025 17:26

TRAs make a lot of threats, Police Scotland investigating is less common.

Fife have possibly made at least one offer to settle but as they are still trying to claim the internal process was fair, when it was very clearly was anything but, you can imagine what sort of an offer it would be.

"Look we've said now there was no evidence against you so you can come back to work as long as you agree trans people can use whatever changing room they like and you agree to the re-education. We wont pay any of your costs or any compensation because we didnt do anything wrong".

And Sandie saying " my lawyers advise me not to settle on that basis, see you in court",

Extravirginolive · 18/07/2025 17:26

Trans inclusion has been such a positive for society hasn't it?

ThreeWordHarpy · 18/07/2025 17:29

I’m sure if this was an English trust that Wes Streeting would be making a few calls. I don’t know enough about Neil Gray to know whether he’ll be doing the same this weekend.

Either way, I hope NHS Darlington are paying attention…

cigarsmokingwoman · 18/07/2025 17:32

is there anything stopping MF from sharing the emails in the bundle on twitter?

WannabeEDIOfficer · 18/07/2025 17:32

I think the statement has changed already. I think they hwve added a sentence about Sex Matters not being involved in harrassmwnt

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