arrested at Pride for wearing a sign saying Trans=mental illness

[happydappy2]

Montgomery Toms has been arrested for wearing a sign showing the pink & blue stripes of trans=mental illness.

Arrested. What has happened to free speech in this country?

https://x.com/ESpeaksFreely/status/1941518454466748461

I remembered this from last night and remembered that I wanted to address this.

"That everyone should be treated equally. How shocking!"

Perhaps this poster forgot that this was a thread about the arrest of a man for a sign that stated what he considers a true fact. It did not call for violence. It did not declare someone was a nazi or a fascist. It wasn't personally directed at one person.

Treating someone equally under the law is really important. And yet, you supported and even celebrated this man's arrest. Yet, the double standards are very clear. The police are not arresting the protestors that arrive to silence women's events or for the signs that appear at protests for that group that feminists are not turning up to counter protest.

I think it the treatment of this man has not been equal at all. But your posts come across as supporting this unequal treatment. That is inconsistent. Why do you think this inconsistency exists in your arguments?

The whooping and jeering, like a bunch of school children who have chased a kid off the playground standing round the gate shouting 'yeah! We knew you wouldn't stay for your kicking!' the repeated comments of see I knew it! No answer! So predictable they're gone!

It's really childish behaviour and it's bizarre you're all so proud of it.

In short, I can't answer repeated questions from 15 different posters because I have a job, and a child to look after, and actually have a life outside MN. My views are perfectly clear, I don't believe trans women belong in women's sex spaces, however I don't believe it is acceptable to deride and mock the way the posters here do. I really don't know what you think I'm trying to convince you all of other than to stop being deliberately cruel about trans people by mocking them. I don't see why any of you would need "hard evidence or a coherent argument" to be convinced that just not being a dick to people is the way people should behave in civilised society.

Continuously repeating 'you only want women to be quiet/nice' 'we will not be kind!' just makes you look silly. I have explained several times that men shouldn't be mocking or deriding people either (including the man waving the sign in this thread, who was rightly removed for doing so). It's not WOMEN should be nice to people, it's PEOPLE should be nice to people. I don't understand why none of you can accept that and keep banging on about 'expecting women to behave in a nice womanly way'. Honestly, stop going on about this. It just looks silly. Like declaring me A MALE POSTER because you don't like what I am saying looks silly.

Datun, I don't know who the person you keep banging on about us, I don't care. I'm not going to waste time learning about them because of that very busy life outside MN I mentioned and racism being irrelevant to this debate.

Waving offensive signs at events for either side of the debate is wrong as these people should be removed/arrested.

Thats it. It was never complicated, I don't know why you're all acting like it's complicated and you can't understand my views. I'm not interested in wasting any more time on this, you won't convince me it's fine to take the piss out of people and I clearly won't convince you all to stop mocking trans people. And just for the final clarification, men in frocks, men LARPing as women and all the other bullshit terms you make up for trans women ARE mocking.

Enjoy mocking me for not wanting to play anymore for the next three pages. You seem to really enjoy it.

Wow, that looks lush.

I have clearly stated that signs at women's events insulting TERFs are unacceptable, the wielders should be arrested and the fact that this does not happen is a failure of policing.

Why are you making out this has not been stated and I support unequal treatment? All of the sign wavers should be arrested. They should all be treated equally. Stop making disengeuous claims about what I have said.

Googling tells me that homosexuality was listed as a mental illness in DSM I and DSM II, so between 1952 and 1974, in the USA. Not before or since then, and not elsewhere. Pretty well concurrent with MK Ultra. American psychology has a dark history, and it is up to its neck in genderism.

That's really not convincing anyone that you actually could answer the questions you have been asked. I have been looking for answers to my questions for over three years now. Women (and occasionally men) here have been willing to answer, pretty convincingly. But it seems that those with a different worldview are reluctant to explain it. How can I see and evaluate your truth if you keep it secret?

Has the time to write out a really long reply but can't answer a simple short question that would only need a yes or a no. The cowardice is really so transparent.

I was dousing myself in Yardley English Rose perfume in Boots earlier. Old fashioned but lovely.

My favourite perfume is from Penhaligons but it's way above my price range apart from the wee bottles you get in a testing experience and they're gone in no time.

The false comparison with the history of people who are homosexual or bisexual being considered mentally ill is one we often see. The posters never seem to understand why it is a false comparison.

As Flirts points out, it was always a false accusation made that people who were attracted to the same sex had a mental illness.

The difference really is about what is materially real and what is not.

Being same sex attracted is materially real. It is not typically considered to be based on someone's philosophical belief, it can be seen to be substantiated. The person is attracted or is not. And it also doesn't really impact if someone else supports that belief or not in their needs for single sex provisions. If someone doesn't believe that the person is attracted to the same sex, it doesn't change the reality for that person's attraction. The attraction has a materially real component.

However, gender dysphoria, which only applies to some people who have a transgender identity, has a diagnosis tool which relates to mental health. It is a believed state of being that doesn't reflect the material reality of that person's body. We are constantly told that it is not a medical condition. Yet, we are also told that treatment is 'life saving'. How do you treat something that is not a medical condition? It is yet another inconsistency.

Either way, because no person with a transgender identity requires any diagnosis of dysphoria at all, this also means that the only commonality between all people with a transgender identity is their philosophical belief about themselves. There is no biological or neurological markers for being transgender. The belief does not reflect the material reality of that person's body.

These are two very different states of being - being same/both sex attracted and having a transgender identity.

I believe that the only reason that same sex attracted people are politically leveraged as we have seen on this thread, is because people understand that history of those who are same/both sex attracted. The false comparison is supposed to be draw someone to use an emotional response and it acts like a type of appeal to authority in my view. But it is a false comparison, none the less.

however I don't believe it is acceptable to deride and mock the way the posters here do. I really don't know what you think I'm trying to convince you all of other than to stop being deliberately cruel about trans people by mocking them.

What precisely are you talking about?

It wouldnt take you long to clarify this, which I'm sure you know.

'You' might think that the protestors at the women's events should be arrested. The fact is that they aren't. That is one of the main points being discussed on this thread.

The CIA used both sex and drugs in their mind-control experiments in MKUltra and anything in the DSM in the 50s and 60s has to be considered in light of that.

Are mind-control games still being played by the American military and big pharma? Is encouraging genderist beliefs part of that? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

When transwomen stop mocking women by dressing up as a caricature of women, then my guess is we'll all stop mocking them.

In the spirit of playground politics that you seem so keen to highlight - they started it. Trans women started this. They can fuck right off if they think there's not going to be a push back.

Women are an oppressed group. It is not acceptable to appropriate ANY oppressed group.
We have thousands of years of shit behind us. I'll be fucked if I'm going to roll over and welcome these entitled, deluded people into MY oppressed group. It is not a group that you can identify into.

Interesting how we're all so CRUEL for wanting to pushback against a harmful ideology, that traps potentially autistic children in pre pubescent bodies....who benefits from that state of affairs?

@SugarSoiree

'My views are perfectly clear, I don't believe trans women belong in women's sex spaces, however I don't believe it is acceptable to deride and mock the way the posters here do.'

The only reason transwomen are not allowed in women's spaces is in no small part because of the campaigning and hard work of women on this very board over the last decade or more.

They have been threatened, derided, mocked and sneered at for protecting women.

If they had had your attitude, had continued to #BeKind, had centred men's feelings over women's rights, I have no doubt that women's spaces would no longer exist in this country.

Talk about being late to the party and then complaining the service...

Elisabethan Rose? Warm and spicy but light too (and ruinously expensive!). Love it

I’m going to keep thinking that ridiculous men are ridiculous and pointing it out, regardless of whether it upsets some other posters

<shrug>

So, more insults and hyperbole from you but no one can respond to your insults. It is just more of the same double standards that we have seen.

"In short, I can't answer repeated questions from 15 different posters because I have a job, and a child to look after, and actually have a life outside MN."

And so do many of the people on this post. It is Mumsnet. But I think that we certainly do understand that you cannot answer the questions that would have clarified your position, but you can spend the time censuring other posters.

We get it.

You cannot explain why you don't believe male people forcibly changing the language female people use for their protection in laws and policy is misogyny. And why you believe other posters are wrong to say that those same male people who claim to be female are mocking, uncivil and harming female people.

You just want others to accept that what you say is accurate and is righteous with no effort from you to explain why. I can only assume from your post that the reason you think your position is an accurate representation of what is happening is because of 'kindness'.

Datun, I don't know who the person you keep banging on about us, I don't care. I'm not going to waste time learning about them because of that very busy life outside MN I mentioned and racism being irrelevant to this debate.

You don't need to know who they are. You just need to know they pretended to be black. I suspect you know that that is as racist as fuck, though.

But when men pretend to be women, it's not sexist.

How can you grasp that appropriating being black, and joining an organisation to advocate and support black people, is racist. But doing exactly the same in terms of womanhood isn't.

I'll tell you how.

You can't see the sexism.

Because you are buying it.

You actually buy that men can appropriate womanhood, because of stereotypes. Be feminine, wear feminine clothes, etc.

Your entire outlook is sexist as fuck. But you can't see it, because you genuinely think that if men act a certain way, or think a certain way, or behave a certain way, they are 'like women'.

The question you need to ask yourself is how do women have to act, think or behave??

edited to add this, because I'm trying to appeal to your logic and sense, not your emotion, that if we decide being a woman involves certain ways of behaving, thinking or acting, where do you think that leaves feminism?

please try and understand that women have been significantly disadvantaged because of the use of stereotypes.

Not allowed to have a bank account, not allowed to have a mortgage, without a man signing off on both. Because women were considered too irresponsible to manage their own money. As late as the 70s.

Not allowed access to higher education, because... well I'll leave you to consider exactly how many stereotypes justified that one.

Rape within marriage. Completely legal until 1992, because women were expected to provide sex on demand.

Not paid the same. Ask yourself why not? What stereotype of a woman would mean that? They're not serious enough? Don't work hard enough?

Come ON!

what makes a man think he's a woman?? Because it's sure as shit can't be just biology.

You have no idea what I'm buying darling, but keep the insults coming your mask is slipping

So you know I support equal treatment for all and call the failure to arrest themselves people a policing failure, but still decided to claim I don't believe in equal treatment and want to favour the guys sign this thread was about.

Talk about dishonest.

It's not an insult SugarSoiree

I'm asking you to think!!

And I've edited my post, so there are a couple of paragraphs you may not have read.

Come on. Apart from biology what do you actually think is the difference between men and women that makes men think they are women? Thinking? Behaving? Acting?

Come on. See the sexism.

I was one of them. I'm ashamed to say I initially 'hate-read', thinking these awful, bigoted posters were being so cruel to the poor, vulnerable transwomen with women brains. It wasn't their fault they were born in the wrong body. They were harmless and at risk.

It took a long time, but I reached the summit, with the help of the calm, logical responses by much cleverer women than me. And I'm forever grateful.

If someone comes along with reasoned arguments as to why the gender critical position is incorrect, I'll absolutely change my mind back again. But it hasn't happened yet.

You know how you believe that you can say how people’s posts come across to you? That is what I have just pointed out, how your posts are coming across considering the police have shown unequal treatment of this man.

Sugarsoiree, you don't seem interested in discussion, or any of the ostensible points raised or made.

It seems you are holding a vast and deep amount of animus towards the women on this board. I don't know why. Mother issues, perhaps. But there is no attempt to engage, merely these repeated assertions that everyone is being mean.

I mean this sincerely - please take a breath, step back, and stop.