arrested at Pride for wearing a sign saying Trans=mental illness

[happydappy2]

Montgomery Toms has been arrested for wearing a sign showing the pink & blue stripes of trans=mental illness.

Arrested. What has happened to free speech in this country?

https://x.com/ESpeaksFreely/status/1941518454466748461

Have you considered the reason you are coming across as scolding is because you are replying to women who are trying to get you to appreciate their anger and dismay at being legally and socially diminished to meet the needs of men by objecting to how they are expressing it rather than engaging with any of the questions you've been asked or counterarguments that have been made?

I get that you don't think a man reducing half of humanity to an "identity" then using that "identity" to shout over women and shoehorn his way into their rights and protections is misogynistic. I get that you are just utterly utterly horrified at women saying mean things about men doing this. I get that you apparently believe calling an activist for trans rights a Trans Rights Activist as slur.

But I have no idea why you think any of this other than some sort of weird idea that "women are only allowed to say no to men if they are nice about it."

Can you explain why men's feelings are so much more important to you than women's truth?

Do you believe the fundamental difference between men and women, the reason women have faced sexism, rape and marginalisation, been sold as property, been locked out of power, been banned from owning money, been a chattel of fathers and husbands, is not because people looked at our bodies and decided to do these things to us but because our minds are just so darn different to men's, and it's just some weird and crazy coincidence all that shit happened to happen to the minds of the people with female bodies?

And if you don't believe that, why does it scare you so much for women to say openly what you also believe but are too scared to say?

I completely agree with this. However, I would prefer to say that some of their actions show misogyny rather than that they are misogynists. Some will not see their misogyny, because they are blinded by the dogma that centres trans people and at the same time ignores women - they will only be aware of centring trans people. They will often not be out and out misogynists who have no respect for women in any circumstances.

SugarSoiree

You don't seem to want to respond to people's questions.

Could you respond to my question about whether Rachel Dolezal is automatically racist or not?

edited to add that it should be able to help you see why men saying they're women is automatically sexist.

Yes, I'm sure there are people like that.

But nonetheless, certainly to me, it's definitely sexist at the very least. It's sexism so ingrained they don't even know they're displaying it.

And I actually get it, to be honest. Men and women are practically raised to be sexist.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but the BBC programme 'no more boys and girls' showed how even genuinely well meaning teachers, who imagine they're going out of their way to be fair, are still sexist.

They were utterly shocked when the film was played back to them and they saw their unconscious actions.

Yes, it's sexist at its heart, which is interesting when considering "transmen". Men don't generally feel threatened by them, but I do suspect that transmen are often trying to escape sexism and misogyny.

(I also think part of some transwomen's motivation is trying to escape generally accepted expectations of men; I think this because it took me a long time to reach a place of comfort with the expectations placed on me, and I sometimes tried too hard to fit in, which may have had a negative impact on my DW.)

Yes, it certainly looks as though women are trying to escape sexism, and men are trying to embrace it.

Because, of course, it's usually women who are disadvantaged by it, and men who benefit from it. So it makes perfect sense for it to distil down along those lines.

And yes, I'm sure there are men who feel constrained by accepted masculinity.

But again, the sexism being displayed there is that they are using the very concept of womanhood to make themselves feel better about being born male.

Using sexism for your own ends and therefore embedding it is, of course, just more sexism.

Challenging it, is feminism.

Unnecessarily provocative . Possibly.

The point is however that trans identifying men carrying placards advocating the hanging of women, their rape, burning, beating with nail studded baseball bats and other forms of extreme violence have NOT been arrested, even those who are repeat offenders

Although interestingly a number of women have been arrested for violently tying coloured ribbons and aggressively sticking stickers on lamp posts.

There really needs to be some sort of agreement about what is and what isn’t an offence to even up the playing field.

Yes being gay was thought to be a mental illness so I suppose the same sort of people would have worn similar signs back then

Um I don't think that's what many readers will take away from this thread. It's very enlightening

So what are your thoughts on the type of signs routinely displayed at 'pro trans' rights rallies (such as 'the only good terf is a dead terf') and the difference in Police action between the 'decapitate terf' signs and the sign which is the basis of this thread?

Quite. What I took from these threads when I started reading them a couple of years ago I'd that the GC posters here enjoy being patronising and belittling posters who don't agree with them because the only reason they could possibly disagree with their views is because they haven't done enough research or thought it all through enough. It's very self righteous.

Add in the clear pack behaviour displayed and when all else fails just declare they are obviously a man! and its just really off putting to a lot of people. A lot of women both on MN and other forums say they want nothing to do with this brand of feminism.

No one is under any obligation to post on a board they dislike, are they.

Off you pop then.

If transwomen are not the same as women (as you stated earlier) and are also not men, what sex do you think they are?

Yes it's very eye opening. It's kind of funny that that they think other women are going to read this and be 'peaked'! More like not knowing whether to laugh or cry!

Why? What do you believe that Sugar is saying?

Can you explain how the action to redefine the very language that female people need to use to enact laws and policies to protect them and their interests is not an act of misogyny? And if it is not misogyny, how do you describe it?

Can you describe the benefit to female people to have male people included in the words 'female', 'woman/girl'? What are the benefits directly to female people that you see?

So, you have been reading threads for years and cannot articulate a coherent answer to the questions people have asked you so that we can understand your view better?

Sorry to disappoint but many women have indeed been “peaked” by reading threads on MN. Of course people in their own echo chambers won’t be aware of that though.

Reddit tag-team on mumsnet is a real thing.

Well, Eresh, if the questions continue to remain unanswered by the posters who are claiming to reject the premises of those questions, I cannot see how the dissonance is not clanging loudly in people's minds as they read along.

But I think that it is probably likely the case that if your argument is purely based on emotional reasons and you cannot form a cogent answer for those questions for yourself, (general observation) you might join in the censuring and shaming of posters who are saying uncomfortable things. Rather than actively asking questions yourself or providing thoughtful responses.

After all, declaring that everything said is transphobic removes the need in your (general your) mind to think about why people think this way. If you do think through the issue, that is questioning what you believe is righteous. It is purely emotionally driven.

The thing with homosexuality being regarded (not very widely) as a mental illness, or the very common accusation that a woman, particularly a woman with money or other property coveted by family members, was suffering from 'hysteria' and must be locked up, is that they can be balanced against two and a half thousand years of written records that same-sex relationships existed, as did independent women, even if some societies disapproved of them.

There is no record of people changing sex, and no record of people having had gendered identities, never mind transgendered identities, until the last couple of decades.

It's as though a generation has been convinced that gravity isn't real, and that not only can they fly, but everyone else had to agree they can fly. With added bonus harassment of women.

Well, there were some "transsexuals" and "sex change operations" going back decades, but they were few in number. The current explosion in people expressing transgender identities is a very recent thing.

I had this "discussion" with my daughter who insisted that it was just that now people felt more able to be their true selves, while my argument was that that may be the case for some but surely not all (context being that seemingly a quarter of her year group at school at the time had some sort of trans identity). She refused to believe that this could be anything other than people expressing their true innate selves.

I’ve yet to see anyone explain what I have in common with (say) prominent transwoman Juno Dawson that we do not have in common with Kier Starmer or Keanu Reeves.

what makes me and Juno both women? Using the word ‘woman’ in the answer renders it null and void

if @SugarSoiree or our new friend @WiseAquaCat could provide an explanation it might help me understand why they’re quite so sure of themselves

Well I for one have never been on Reddit. Too old, don't know what it is really

Not going to even bother giving any opinions because you're only interested in your own views. Anyone who even mildly disagrees is pounced upon, called a man, a misogynist, an activist or a Reddit user. Utterly pointless and got better things to do thanks. Just happened upon this thread by accident and couldn't quite believe what I was reading. So pile on, insult blah blah but I'm not wasting any more time.