Islington Council slams 'botched' single sex spaces guidance

[IwantToRetire]

The council argues that the new guidance, which suggests that staff should check a person’s sex at birth before granting access to single-sex services or spaces, is unworkable and risks breaching individuals’ privacy and exposing them to harassment.

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to determine whether someone is trans, without subjecting them to harassment or breaching their right to privacy, is not practical.

"It risks legal confusion and a culture of suspicion.

"That’s why we have called for the EHRC to pause this botched process – properly listening to trans communities – rather than simply causing further confusion."

Full article at https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/25283099.islington-council-slams-botched-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

It’s the trifecta, along with the peeing and moob protests. I gave no idea why we don’t want to share intimate spaces with these fragile folks

If transwomen who rarely to never 'pass' stayed out of our spaces and stopped pretending to be women, gender non-conforming women (I have never seen such a lady who I did not instantly know was a woman btw) would have no problem - we certainly had none before this Men's Rights group started invading our spaces.

While AidaP is in the wrong, he's also a highly useful man, at this point in time, who fits in with the men who could help the tide crash down.

The majority of people are now bored with hearing about the cult. Even Pride has become twisted with T bending things towards male desires rather than fairness for homosexual people and so interest has dwindled. There's a risk that people could forget there are men who don't want women to have rights and who ignore the supreme court.

AidaP is actively happy to remind people of the issues, how stunning!

The obsession with stalking women's meetings reminded me.

Mother issues in my opinion

Absolutely nothing to do with trans people.

Section 28 banned schools from telling young people that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation and that there is no shame to being only attracted to members of the same sex. It caused huge damage in maximising the number of homosexual people who grew up confused, ashamed and afraid to come out of the closet.

No there was no mention of trans and no mention of bathrooms.

Nowadays it's the advocates of "transwomen are women" who want to prevent young people from being allowed to declare and accept their sexuality, because young lesbians are required to accept the male-bodied people who want to opt-in to lesbianism despite being heterosexual men. They are the true inheritors of section 28.

The leisure centre would ask your sex, you'd lie, they wouldn't believe you, they'd ban you, you'd threaten to sue, they call your bluff, you talk to a solicitor who says you have no case, you drop it, you join another gym with gender neutral changing facilities, you continue to work on your backstroke and a bit of cardio, everyone lives happily ever after.

Think of it like smoking, it used to be accepted that people could smoke at their desk at work, on tube trains, trains, aeroplanes, pubs, theatres, cinemas etc. The law was changed but what made the difference was society decided it wasn’t acceptable. If someone lights a cigarette at work now people have the confidence to object.

For the last decade or so society has been misled about what the law actually meant in relation to GRCs and so women felt unable to object to TW in single sex spaces. The law has been clarified giving women the confidence to object to biological men in women’s single sex spaces.

The provision of unisex facilities, alongside single sex provision, will ensure everyone’s privacy and dignity is respected. Just like smoking, over time we will see society’s attitudes change. No need to “lift your skirt” just remember - Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

@AidaP agree with underthinker.

I posted elsewhere about enforcement. Used to run a women's refuge service. (for biological, by biological women type of service)

If in was still in that position i would most certainly have as part of the needs and risk assessment have a question about biological sex.

And if upon their presentation they were observably a biological male then i would refuse admission, offer them the complaints procedure which would require proof that i was mistaken. No genital inspection required.

As regards loos, which in truth require people like yourself to comply with the law, if i came across you there I would (all five foot nothing of me) challenge you.

You might want to believe that you and others “pass” as women i can assert that is never true.

My latest experience was Jeremy vine a few days ago. I was not even looking , i heard “that voice” that men who have either had voice training or shaved their vocal cords, but unmissable.

looked up to see “Stella” somebody or other clearly a very well groomed female impersonator, i looked him up and was correct.

Even those with vast resources can never fool.

So no hope for the average common or garden TIM.

I think actually you should lift your skirt at the receptionist. He'll probably call the police. Fairly sure you won't be allowed entrance that day, or any other day.

Just stay out of the ladies'. it's really not complicated.

Tons of bio women are accused of being male 'on the regular'?!

I've never ever met or heard of a woman saying they've been accused of being a bloke. Even extremely masculine presenting ones, or those with a double mastectomy and short hair.

And anyway, I'd rather be accused of being a man than have to share a single sex space with one.

If you are a bio male them you shouldn't go into female only spaces. It's not complicated.

But they've been happy for all this to fall exactly on the shoulders of reception staff in the first place

As ever, expecting a single thing of any male person is apparently out of the question.

You don't care about women when you breach their clearly stated boundaries so let's not pretend you care about any 'misgendering'.

It's often said, ah, but men could always barge into women's spaces, toilets, etc. Yes, they could, but it happened fairly rarely, and could often be forestalled, either by a bunch of women making a scene, or nearby men intervening. But now, the climate is quite different, TIMs see themselves as being invited into women's spaces. We all rely on civilised behaviour in a civilised society. These boundaries are being damaged.

It's irrelevant what your documents say. It's very simple really. You're not a woman. Stay out of the women's.
See? Easy peasy 😊

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to deal with the distress and trauma of a woman having been in the changing room with a male is unacceptable. Members of staff who have failed to challenge this man, when they are obviously not female, are subjecting women and children to harassment, vouyerism and sexual abuse and breaching their right to privacy. It's irrelevant of whether they feel uncomfortable in safeguarding it's their duty of care and responsibility to other members of staff.

"Fail to do this risks the legal rights of women and a culture of suspicion resulting in women self excluding because they no longer feel safe.

Women still matter and everyone has a legal responsibility to ensure them have their privacy, dignity and safety. We are sorry this is an inconvenience and nuisance to Islington Borough Council, but they can fuck off to the far side of fuck with their whining.

The EHRC can only advise based on the law as it stands. If they have a problem with that, instead of whinging about the guidance they could take it up with their MPs.

That'll be the very helpful Jeremy Corbyn and Emily Thornberry who will be absolutely delighted to support them and resolve the matter by getting legislation through parliament that abolishes sex based rights as they are very influential and can get the necessary parliamentary votes. Ms Thornberry will be delighted to get this on the agenda for the Labour party as it's such a vote winner and independent Mr Corbyn would love to have a break from his other pet omnicause projects and take us back to no debate style politics and beat Labour with a stick about this.

Ah wait Islington Borough Council is a Labour council, so presumably have Labour council members who could raise this within the Labour party without seeking publicity. Hmm that's odd. Could it be that the party are ignoring them because they know what an amazing vote winner this is. So toys are flying out of prams because staff members are going to have to suck it up.

I have zero sympathy whatsoever. Staff need to get the fuck on with it and stop avoiding responsibility to women and children. It's everyone's responsibility in every walk of life to safeguard. That includes if you are on minimum wage, a volunteer or just stood around minding your own business. Being paid is irrelevant in this situation. So are their personal views. If they have issues with the public doing this, then normal rules apply to antisocial behaviour, barring those individuals who won't follow the rules and declare their sex when appropriate and taking legal action where required

Transpeople need to just follow the law. Problem solved. No one is in a difficult position if they understand and follow the law. Law breakers are the problem - the fact that this isn't being recognised IS the issue.

"I'm a transwoman. How do I prove my sex when all my documents say female when I go to the leisure centre. It's not fair MN / EHRC you are all mean"

By politely asking where suitable gender neutral changing facilities are. Or using the mens. And staying the right side of the law. Because your sex is relevant to this environment and it falls under privacy exceptions. If you have f on your documentation you have one of the GRC thingies right? You can use that to prove the f is misleading. How handy.

And if you don't, but you had all your documents changed anyway and thought that you should get special treatment and that you could force self ID by the backdoor which isn't law, tough titty. You've always known self id isn't law that's why there's been campaigns for it. Youve been trying to deliberately mislead and game the system when it comes to your legal status. You ARE the problem and why there's a need for efforts to protect privacy, dignity and safety on sex based lines. If that's not ok, you could change your documentation back to the correct letters and job done.

Cos oh, the law. How very dare it be an inconvenience to you and it protect women. How awful.

Any transwoman who actively understands the law, believes in equality and the importance of sex based rights and respect for women will automatically adjust their behaviour to fit with the law. Because it matters and has always mattered. Staff should be trained to handle this discreetly. Not difficult, I mean there's a whole industry on training staff to treat transpeople with respect isn't there.

Transwomen who wish to transgress and use women and demand validation instead of equality ARE the problem. They show a total lack of consideration and respect for women.

You can not change biological sex. Gender is not sex. Every trans person knows this even if they try to deny it. There have always been exceptions and situations where this is relevant in life, even to those with a shiny certificate.

No 'skirt hitching' necessary.

Ummm. People have eyes.

Let's draw one of those flow chart things verbally.

All my documents say F but I'm male. How do I prove my sex?

You have a GRC: Use it as proof

You don't have a GRC: Get one.

You don't want a GRC: It's not my fucking problem that self ID isn't law and you've changed all your documents to mislead people and to try and circumnavigate the law which anyone who does this knows full well. Change your documentation back. Or write to your MP about how life isn't fair, because this isn't the EHRC's fault.

Simples.

Hilarious how you think that a civil law could lead to a prison sentence. It cannot even lead to an arrest.

Now you asking to see random people to see a GRC, now that can actually get you arrested. Or harassing people in bathrooms, not to mention taking photos of other people in there.

You lot love the law so much, and yet openly ignore GRA 2004, and how it does indeed change my sex and/or gender (terms used in UK law interchangeably, with narrow exception of EqA2010 under FWS) for all intents and purposes.

This law you flat out deny because... Well, same bigotry as any other, copy/paste rthethoric used in favor of any segregation, ultimately if you are a person of color, just use the colored bathroom provided.

And for S28, it indeed did not mention transgender people, now if you actually had any interest in law from that time, not just did now 1 minute google you would realize why they were not mentioned. The answer is as simple and as obvious - before GRA 2004 transgender people did not exist as far as UK law is concerned.

Similar sad fate as nonbinary and intersex people suffer right now. Legal recognition is what we won in Goodwin 2002, implemented as GRA 2004. Before that we existed in your utopia of not being recognized by law... And still used the correct toilets.

See, no matter how many skirts you buy and put on. No matter how how many documents you falsify, you just cannot identify out of or disguise that male pattern entitlement. It even screams out from your posts.

We are always told that the aggressive TRAs have spoilt it for the lovely genuine transwomen who just want to live their lives quietly. Well, I suppose Aida really has confirmed all my doubts I had about this claim.
Aida, your utter disregard for reality, truth and women's rights has made me even more determined to fight this shit. No matter if your documents claim you are female, you are still very obviously an entitled, uncaring man. You don't even need to lift your skirts for that to be obvious.

You shouldn't need to ask for a GRC. A GRC should be presented proactively by a law abiding citizen in this scenario to solve the issue.

If someone isn't abiding by the law then it's potentially not a civil issue - it's one about vouyerism and sexual harassment.

If someone doesn't have a GRC, then they aren't being unlawfully harassed now are they? Because they are the correct sex. Or they are breaking the law ) trying to break the law (see above point about offences). If someone is suspected of breaking the law, it gets dealt with appropriately and sensitively like any other number of issues. A centre that doesn't follow procedures in this scenario risks liability issues if someone complains. Self ID is not the law in the UK.

In the small number of cases where you might be in the process of trying to obtain a GRC, a simple dated doctor's note might be relevant and can be followed up if necessary.

Omg you for president please.

Just obey the law, and stay out of women's spaces. Don't lie, and don't blame others for a problem you yourself have created.