Islington Council slams 'botched' single sex spaces guidance

[IwantToRetire]

The council argues that the new guidance, which suggests that staff should check a person’s sex at birth before granting access to single-sex services or spaces, is unworkable and risks breaching individuals’ privacy and exposing them to harassment.

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to determine whether someone is trans, without subjecting them to harassment or breaching their right to privacy, is not practical.

"It risks legal confusion and a culture of suspicion.

"That’s why we have called for the EHRC to pause this botched process – properly listening to trans communities – rather than simply causing further confusion."

Full article at https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/25283099.islington-council-slams-botched-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

I agree with everything apart from the ‘it’s a statement of his selfishness’. To me it’s a statement of him being male that he can’t understand why (some) women don’t want him in the toilets and have a right to demand so. If he was a woman he’d get it.

Except Article 8 of Convention of Human Rights explicitly protects my trans status, this was affirmed again in T.H. vs Czechia few weeks ago (and outright stated in GRA 2004) that transgender people have to right to keep their transition status private. The idea that we should just wear a pink triangle, or otherwise announce "I am trans" is in direct violation of both of those, literally as per T.H as that was one of the points Czechia was found in breach of.

Welcome to another episode of "what the law actually says" instead of what people have as a dream here but present as fact. But as you refuse to acknowledge this law with decades of enforcement, precedent and criminal penalties for breaching, why should we care about poorly written FWS judgment that's a civil law at most?

Article 8 has exceptions which are routinely conveniently forgotten.

The interference must pursue a legitimate aim, such as those listed in the ECHR, including national security, public safety, economic well-being, preventing disorder or crime, protecting health or morals, and protecting the rights and freedoms of others.

Thus given that vouyerism and sexual harassment are actual crimes and that there's are sex based rights to privacy that apply along the lines of sex not gender - this matters and is a fair and legitimate aim for any situation which involves a potential state of undress.

Feel free to take it to court.

Literally one of two issues in T.H. was that a person had to disclose their trans status when entering id-requiring services, which was many of them, and that was found to be a direct breach of Article 8.

So that literally what was settled in T.H. (and few other cases before) go and have a read. People really need to learn that law must be read in a full, wide, context, not just narrow passage you like and interpret the way you see fit.

If there is a conflict of competing interests, it doesn't stop the legal rights of others parties. Women still have sex based rights. Sex is not gender.

Take it to court.

The whole 'i have a GRC but I don't want to show it' argument is a load of bullshit when it comes to accessing women and removing their privacy and dignity in the process.

I’ve never understood this business about trans people being outed. Do men honestly think nobody knows they’re a man underneath the lippy, dangly earrings and spinny skirt?
And I don’t understand what they think they’ll achieve by showing their genitals to unsuspecting receptionists, other than confirming they are men who want to expose themselves in public.
Have I completely misunderstood the situation?

transgender people have to right to keep their transition status private

There are perfectly sensible solutions here, such as what Sex Matters is campaigning for with the digital ID thing.

Making it so people don't have to reveal their sex incidentally when giving ID in a situation where sex doesn't matter.

But making sure the sex recorded is accurate in a case where sex does matter.

So Aida doesn't have to show that he is male when it's not relevant.

But he is able to prove his sex when necessary, eg if challenged in the mens.

And obviously he isn't able to actually enter any female services, because women have rights too.

Sorted.

Oh and btw. If you do take it to the ECHR and do win, guess what will happen? Your trigger public support for leaving the ECHR and Mr Farage will be absolutely delighted. And guess what will happen then?

But I'm not stupid enough to fail to see where the public stand on this issue and just how much of a backlash you'd get from this.

This is very much a case of knowing which battles to pick.

I'd personally rather keep the ECHR and will be very pissed off if it goes the way Reform would be delighted to push as I can't stand Reform.

Yes, on multiple fronts.

1. You got caricature view of who transgender people are, expecting something grotesque out of a meme, rather than a person. Come to a meetup, learn a reality, some of them welcome CIS respectful people, google around.
2. We do not plan to show genitals to anyone, it's what the guidance of EHRC suggests as a way to confirm "biological sex" as any other means of "proving your sex" includes transgender people as all their documents - birth certificat included - show the correct sex. Though even would not be accurate for individuals who undertook genial surgery.

It all points to the reality that tons of transgender people live in what's called stealth, which means people around them do not know that they are trans. This forum refuses to acknowledge that this marvel exists, and yet there are tons of stealth trans people around. But unless you are close friend with them you would never know as they won't tell you. And they don't have to, we have the right to keep it private.

Aka the transphobic dreams of easy outing ot transgender people just does not live up to practical realities. Recent example is the latest transphobic lcommunity dating app, with it's massive anti-trans check that they call "effective".. Except there are so many many of transgender on it already that it really is a t4t dating site.

But "we can always tell" lie continues.

The threat of a dick is one that even those who identify as women fully understand.

Stealthing.
Interesting choice of words there.

Yet I've experienced assault - exposure -from a 'transwoman' in the ladies.

Why on earth do you think women's discomfort doesn't matter while yours does? The entitlement is ridiculous.

Women losing single sex spaces doesn't matter to you, but you losing access to women's spaces is 'impossible'.

The fact you see.women as obliged to serve you is such astounding sexism I honestly don't even know where to start.

I'm terribly sorry to tell you that women are every bit as human as you are. We say no.

It all points to the reality that tons of transgender people live in what's called stealth, which means people around them do not know that they are trans. This forum refuses to acknowledge that this marvel exists, and yet there are tons of stealth trans people around.

Rather unfortunate that absolutely zero of them are involved in the "trans rights" movement, and instead they're campaigning for the rights of obvious blokes.

Can I suggest you start a campaign for these stealth transgender people, and get some public representatives?

You're a man. All trans women are men because a defining characteristic of trans women is that you have to be a man.

You can't not have heard the recent court ruling. The word woman, as per the equality act, means a biological woman and biological sex. Therefore, you need to use the men's toilets.

As I said on another thread, it'd be great if the BBC could get rid of the current trans rent a quote mob and found some alternative voices are less extreme, cover a range of different political positions and which gave some more positive representation of trans people because the current cohort all seem to have backgrounds which would have largely seen them deplatformed for their conduct. Their representations are arguably hugely transphobic because they are deliberately picking people who damage the creditability and reputation of transpeople as a collective group. It's very sad to see.

Logical progression from the moobment's mass public exposures.

When the optics you get are more

"Vindaloo. Vindaloo. And we all like vindaloo."

Than oppressed delicate flowers, it's really not successful publicity is it?

'the latest transphobic lcommunity dating app, with it's massive anti-trans check that they call "effective".. Except there are so many many of transgender on it already that it really is a t4t dating site."

1. How can you tell if they're all so stealth?

1. Good christ, mate, could you get any more gross? You're a man going on a lesbian dating site and gleefully sharing that it's been invaded by men.

1. Thank you sincerely for providing a useful illustration of what this councillor is enabling, supporting, and encouraging. I do hope you are regularly in touch with your political representatives.

I know, if only transphobes were left to harass transgender people in peace, with no pushback, world would be beautiful.

I dont know Red, I'm half appalled by Aida's gross sexism and half grateful that it's so visible.

I hope it's useful reading for those who've exhorted us to be kind and chided us for not thinking of the trans people 'living quietly'.

I always think that surely to God the problems are visible from space, and then another Islington councillor pops up to remind me that there are still women out there keen to protect and encourage these men, despite everything.

A trans identifying male is never going to be asked to reveal their trans status before allowing them to access a women-only single sex space, because trans identifying males are not entitled to access women-only single sex spaces.

Trans identifying males know their own sex and can be expected to use that information to avoid accessing services & spaces that they’re not entitled to use.

It would be hard for a trans identifying male to find a lawyer to take a case where the TIM knew their own sex, knew that they were trying to access a single sex resource for the other sex, but had a complaint not about access to the resource itself, but instead about documentation requirements relating to a valid exclusion.

A trans identifying man trying to repeatedly access single sex spaces meant for women could become a criminal matter under current law (harassment being one example)

Honestly, I think Islington is really beyond help at this point.

Men like Aida make it so obvious that trans women are not women. they don't care about women's issues. They only care about their own agenda.

I've never once come across a transwoman who is interested in genuine problems that women face. When the US overturned the law relating to abortion, transwomen were silent for.example. that's because transwomen aren't women, and they can't get pregnant and rulings like this don't affect them and they know that and they don't care

All transwomen care about is the right to force the way into biological womens single sex spaces. It's a one track agenda, purely to harass biological women.

I suggest you all just stop engaging with this man. It's only fueling his fire.