Best Amazon Prime Day deals: Mumsnet favourites

Best Amazon Prime Day deals:
Mumsnet favourites

Shop now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
potpourree · 18/06/2025 19:43

Any fule knowe that!

Ah, OP, you nearly had me convinced with all the jokey dismissive bullshit, but you fucked this reference right up, so nothing you can say will convince me of what you're saying because I'm too busy cringing

potpourree · 18/06/2025 19:45

Well everyone, I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that OP just plopped out that as a first post and went deathly silent.

Catiette · 18/06/2025 19:46

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 18/06/2025 17:54

This has to be the most bonkers OP I've seen in a while although it is interesting how some people's minds work.
I've not clicked through all the 'citations' but the ones I have say the exact opposite of what he's claiming.
For example, on puberty blockers, he puts:
They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
Then follows it up with a link to https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ which literally states that there is not enough evidence on their clinical safety and effectiveness.
If you click on the BMJ link, it is literally titled: Puberty blockers: No evidence that a ban has led to “surge” in suicides, finds review.
The citations provided literally say the opposite of what is being claimed in the OP.
I mean presumably he must have at least looked at them in order to write the post? Why pick stuff that disproves his point? I can only assume he hasn't read them and assumes we'll be as lazy. Absolutely batshit.
*Edited to say I've used the word literally too many times here, but that is what the links actually show. Unhinged.

Edited

Yes - just like the sport one. The actual opposite of the original claim in some cases, and at the least, something that throws it intro serious question.

Meanwhile, I'm missing the laugh emoji too...

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/06/2025 19:47

potpourree · 18/06/2025 19:45

Well everyone, I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that OP just plopped out that as a first post and went deathly silent.

I’m sure they’ll be back probably during the night to post multiple looooong diatribes about why we’re all wrong and men are totally women cos reasons

potpourree · 18/06/2025 19:51

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/06/2025 19:47

I’m sure they’ll be back probably during the night to post multiple looooong diatribes about why we’re all wrong and men are totally women cos reasons

Yes and will:
pretend people have written things they haven't by paraphrasing it in a HILARIOUS way (that they've seen bigger boys write on Reddit),
will embarrass themselves by stating it's 'gender critical to want people to conform to gender stereotypes',
will use the phrase 'moral panic',
will use sex and gender interchangeably,
will use 'women' to mean both 'female people' and 'people of either sex' randomly,
will go on and on about being deleted,
will say it's an echo-chamber yet be unable to post a single statement we can all agree on....

and they'll think they're doing something new and provocative!

Screamingabdabz · 18/06/2025 20:09

Fact - human beings can’t change sex.

Fact - girls and women are entitled to protections in law on the basic of biological sex.

Fact - males commit most of the violent and sexual crime.

Fact - segregation by sex, where appropriate, safeguards girls and women from naturally occurring biological disadvantage, and sometimes gender based social disadvantage.

Fact - feminists on MN who are GC care about the rights, protections and dignities of girls and women. And that is a perfectly valid, lawful and worthy view.

Fact - children are being harmed by trans ideology and trans related interventions.

Fact - women are being robbed of sport and media awards due to men being allowed to compete in female categories.

Fact - women’s groups and women-only peaceful protests have been targetted and disrupted by aggressive and threatening TRAs. In many cases the police did nothing to protect the women.

Fact - no man can “live as a woman”.

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 20:09

Are you Zoe Williams?

Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 20:12

I am actually loving the way posters have popped up to support OP telling OP how much they agree.

Either they haven’t actually read the bonkers claims that they are agreeing with, or they are showing readers exactly the dynamic that amounts to extreme ideology. Because they obviously haven’t realised the amount of misinformation that the OP has posted that is all so easily refuted with logic or just current studies and papers.

Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 20:14

Either way, cracking to see so many new usernames calling out the bonkersness of this thread’s opening post.

Catiette · 18/06/2025 20:20

Sandy420 · 18/06/2025 17:57

There aren't 'types' of women, how incredibly offensive. Being a black woman doesn't make you a 'type' of woman. You're either a woman or you're not, and if you were born male then you're not.

'Woman' is more than just a 'social' role, how offensive again - it is also a biological sex. Woman = Adult female human being - I done read it in teh dicktionary.

Now you know what a woman is and isn't, hopefully you'll be able to work out what toilet to use. I mean any fule should know - but you sadly seem to lack any critical thinking skills.

Ah, but didn't you know, we have to categorise "woman" nowadays, breaking her down into a series of distinct "groups" like "lesbian", "black", "disabled" etc., because

...to say that "woman" is the word for half the global population would be reductive and simplistic, wrongly defining women by their superficial physical traits Oh. Right. Yeah. Ignore this. It doesn't quite work, does it... Er...

OK, so, it's because

...we no longer need a word for the female 51% of humanity because they're in no way oppressed due to their biology I mean, pregnancy isn't just a female thing, is it? Or FGM. Or abortion... Er... No, hang on, scrap that, I don't quite mean that, what I mean is... Well, what I mean is... We don't need a word for the group of people who experience those things, do we, because... Er... Well...

So. Moving on. It's actually because...

It shows genuine respect for all the different types of women above to picture them in promotional campaigns (you'll know the one I mean) alongside male women - you may think this "others" women who are "lesbian", "black", "disabled", presenting them as distinct from normative able-bodied white females, but actually this deepens our understanding of what a woman is, because... OK, no. I can, actually, see how what I just said may be just a bit offensive, and that campaign could be distressing to some people. I mean, to place lesbian, black & disabled women alongside males simply to justify the males' inclusion in the female sex class! Heck. That's just... I mean... Wow. Sinking in!

So. What I mean is... Yes! We need all these reductive descriptors of different kinds of women because

Woman's become a really complicated thing to express, because it includes all these different groups, including men, so we need to explain it in detail - and, meanwhile, inclusive phrases like "vagina-owners" or "cervix-havers" aren't understood by certain distinct and oppressed demographics, like, you know, "uneducated women" and "foreign women", and... Hm. OK. Er... that doesn't come across too well either, does it, actually?

(Plus, I think I'm getting myself a bit confused.)

You know what, fuck it.

It's not because I care about women.

It's because breaking "women" down in this way is the only way to include trans-identifying males in their category, and to justify taking their word.

(And you know what? This approach to defining woman is entirely compatible with the definition of man, too! Because, after all, what is it that's defined "man" throughout human history? It's having the arrogance and the power to tell a woman precisely what she is and insist she accepts that).

You see? It all makes sense now, doesn't it? There's an internal logical consistency, after all.

Er...

godmum56 · 18/06/2025 20:23

Wait wait, I need popcorn and a giant coke.

nutmeg7 · 18/06/2025 20:47

Waitwhat23 · 18/06/2025 19:20

A series of haikus from the POV of the OP

A finger shake is
All those naughty ladies need.
A good telling off!

A poorly written,
Nonsensical list of shite
Is my way to go!

Evidence debunked.
TRA talk points from 2018.
Yet I continue.

With such confidence,
I entered the Karen's den.
Reddit, here I come!

❤️❤️❤️

Igneococcus · 18/06/2025 20:56

Limey has popped up over on the SNP thread if anybody is wondering where he has got to.

ThePenguinIsDrunk · 18/06/2025 20:57

With that spelling I think you should pay more attention to your school work. Only 5 weeks until the end of term.

DialSquare · 18/06/2025 21:02

Igneococcus · 18/06/2025 20:56

Limey has popped up over on the SNP thread if anybody is wondering where he has got to.

I notice he hasn’t posted on the living as a woman thread.

JustFish · 18/06/2025 21:20

So many straw men in one post
I love the assumption and self assurance that knowledge will flow only one way...

Reflections on Trans Arguments
SternJoyousBee · 18/06/2025 21:22

Ratisshortforratthew · 18/06/2025 18:14

I agree with you OP and reading FWR - which I do, because I believe in being aware of all viewpoints - has only made me more supportive of trans inclusion. Unfortunately you are wasting your breath here though, as much as people say they want to hear from people who disagree and have a respectful debate, they don’t - you just end up being ridiculed or accused of being a man.

Trans inclusion in what?

Screamingabdabz · 18/06/2025 21:38

Ratisshortforratthew · 18/06/2025 18:14

I agree with you OP and reading FWR - which I do, because I believe in being aware of all viewpoints - has only made me more supportive of trans inclusion. Unfortunately you are wasting your breath here though, as much as people say they want to hear from people who disagree and have a respectful debate, they don’t - you just end up being ridiculed or accused of being a man.

Please please please 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 make an intelligent sane argument for ‘trans inclusion’ that doesn’t displace or harm women.

Everyone is here for it. Genuinely. We can all finally heave a sigh of relief, pack up and go home.

I’m baffled that you still think people just get up in the morning to ‘hate’ trans people for no apparent reason. It makes no sense. We want inclusion. But not at the expense of girls and women.

lechiffre55 · 18/06/2025 21:51

Ohh how will MN GCs ever cope with another pump and dump drop a pile of drivel and run post?

There's a thing about changing the mind of people who disagree with you. You can't do it through insults. No one ever changed their mind by being told how awful they are.
If it makes you feel better to troll fair enough, but all posts like the OP do is convince GC people that they are dealing with emotionally unstable people who need help.

DiamondThrone · 18/06/2025 22:02

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 20:09

Are you Zoe Williams?

That is very mean to Zoe. I am sure she would get the Molesworth reference right.

onceandneveragain · 18/06/2025 22:16

OP I'm a bit bemused - I only clicked on one of your links (the BBC sport one) and it doesn't support your argument at all?
Its split into the 2 views so already half of it is arguing (convincingly) against trans women in women's sports, and even the half arguing for it is a) a trans athlete so already biased and b) whose own positi
on is "its complicated" and "there are no easy answers" - even makes this analogy:

"However, you never put a big boxer in the ring with a little boxer, no matter how good the little boxer is. No matter how hard the little boxer works, trains, how competitive they are, they can't beat a big boxer. The size difference means there's no such thing as meaningful competition between big boxers and little boxers."

So I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove? If anything if I was on the fence it would sway me the other way if even a trans athlete couldn't convince herself!

BackToLurk · 18/06/2025 22:17

potpourree · 18/06/2025 19:51

Yes and will:
pretend people have written things they haven't by paraphrasing it in a HILARIOUS way (that they've seen bigger boys write on Reddit),
will embarrass themselves by stating it's 'gender critical to want people to conform to gender stereotypes',
will use the phrase 'moral panic',
will use sex and gender interchangeably,
will use 'women' to mean both 'female people' and 'people of either sex' randomly,
will go on and on about being deleted,
will say it's an echo-chamber yet be unable to post a single statement we can all agree on....

and they'll think they're doing something new and provocative!

Can I have a quid on ‘biological essentialism’ being used entirely incorrectly?

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 22:19

DiamondThrone · 18/06/2025 22:02

That is very mean to Zoe. I am sure she would get the Molesworth reference right.

Very true. And no defence of trans women in women's prisons. Owen Jones then?

potpourree · 18/06/2025 22:20

BackToLurk · 18/06/2025 22:17

Can I have a quid on ‘biological essentialism’ being used entirely incorrectly?

Oh God. That poster who kept using it to mean the exact opposite of what it means and wouldn't accept it! I do wonder if they ever gave that a second's thought... They certainly weren't stupid, but it was as if when they couldn't immediately answer something that required a bit of thought, they'd just revert back to (what looked like) copying some non-sequitur from some Reddit template.

DiamondThrone · 18/06/2025 22:20

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 22:19

Very true. And no defence of trans women in women's prisons. Owen Jones then?

Oh god he is totally Fotherington-Tomas 😆