Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

"Respectful debate" please

Which trans inclusions do you support?

Using womens toilets?
Using womens changing rooms?Competing in womens sports?
Working in womens rape crisis centres
Caring for elderly women who request female carers?
Nursing female patients who are requesting female nurses?

Which do you support?

TRAs are just TERFs who haven't left the echo chamber yet (either that or misogynists I guess).

"Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult,... "

If there ever was a case for keeping a thread, then this is the thread.

Please, MNHQ, don't delete this thread.

The OP has invoked all the classic TRA tropes so that, like @AncientBallerina , I also think that this may be a reverse.

But it does usefully place all the TRA talking points in one place so that, if anyone is looking for a way to refute a particular claim then it will likely end up here on this thread.

This is the fiction upon which the rest of your arguments rely.

the term woman and man are the daily use nouns for adult human males and females.

sure, there are gendered roles that society attaches to them which may be sexist stereotypes, such as, women love makeup, OR biologically linked natural behaviour such as child birth.

but it’s insanely sexist to therefore extrapolate that liking makeup or other feels and interests that are stereotypically associated with women means a male is in actual fact a female.

gender is human invented

but anyway, you’ve completely conceded that point in your para around sport where you acknowledge that there’s a few men who think they’re women competing at a low level but it’s ok as it’s not many or some sort of similar dismissive anti feminist stance.

This fiction

Everything is about the bloody potatoes.

@LimeFinch Transwomen are men. End. Of. Fucking. Story.

Oh FFS…. The trans propaganda is strong with this one…yet another man feeling the need to educate us daft females …
And which Every single point can be discredited, and disproved.

Give up Dude….you're making yourself look hysterically stupid.

That's perhaps the most bonkers OP on FWR thay I've ever read.

That’s a very long-winded way of saying you’re a male supremacist 👀

For you Rufus...

PAPO (POSTED AND PISSED OFF)

I posted on that Mumsnet
I told them TERF’s what’s what
Then pissed off back to Reddit
In less time than a gunshot.

I told them they were wrong
That men can indeed be wims
That those cheating men in sports
Are ladies and not hims.

That TRAs aren’t extremists
Despite the fact some are
That PB’s are like candy
And there should not be a bar.

I told them that no kids
Get their NHS free OP
Despite the proof that’s out there
That the NHS cut breasts off.

I told them that the men
Larping in women’s sports
Was just a small amount
With an F in their passports.

I told them sex-segregated sports
And fairness was a myth
As I waffled on about footy
And moved on fairly quick.

I told them transwomen are not stronger
And their muscle mass reduces
That the reduction of testosterone
Just mediocre women it produces

I told them no transwoman
Claims to be biologically female
Despite that Dr Upton bloke
Being quoted in the Mail.

I told them trans and cis
Was just like white and black
I didn’t stick around to
Watch their mouths go slack

I told that cross-dressing
Is not the same as trans
Despite the fact that Stonewall
Had completely different plans

I told them that the journey from
A man to a transwoman
Was not an instant thing
And takes a long time in the coming

I told them no one is trying
To convince kids they are tran
Despite the sharp uptick of girls
Now desperate to be a man

I finished with an insult
To the posters of the site
Told them to think of transwomen
And their terribly awful plight.

And now I’m back on Reddit
All puffed up and full of vigour
How I told that anti trans hate cult
That their words they are the trigger.

I posted on that Mumsnet
I told them TERFs what’s what
Then pissed off back to Reddit
In less time than a gunshot.

Testerically stupid, you mean!! 😁

Having a mega ‘TranTrum!’

Define “equal treatment” and in what ways trans people don’t get equal treatment.

Ha ha ha,. Getting to the end I've realised the entirety disproves their first point about there being no such thing as trans extremism. There's worse forms I know but still...

Fuck me that’s vile.

I've not yet read the thread, but reading the opening post was fascinating.

So much of it is rebutted in a rigorous, evidence-based way (not just pasting a link, but reading the link, rereading it, & parsing & defending it) on this site every day.

So much that we know is factually incorrect.

But I thought, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and clicked on just one link as a sample - the peer-reviewed article on strength advantage. Guess what I found in 5 seconds' skimming the abstract?

"Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy."

If you're still around, OP, I hope by now that you've considered that the first page of dismissive posts reflects exhausted frustration at how misguided your claims are, and how frequently they're challenged and disproven here.

Oh look, here’s another random (apologies for the crudeness, I very quickly came upon this on terf is a slur)

I don't know what's more annoying - the tediosity of yet another plopper, the inevitable and identically patronising 'it's perfectly simple you silly wims!' tone or the tired recycling of absolute bollocks that five minutes spent actually reading would show have been countered one million times already.

Whichever. Bore off, you hard-of-thinking little tit.

A series of haikus from the POV of the OP

A finger shake is
All those naughty ladies need.
A good telling off!

A poorly written,
Nonsensical list of shite
Is my way to go!

Evidence debunked.
TRA talk points from 2018.
Yet I continue.

With such confidence,
I entered the Karen's den.
Reddit, here I come!

I always love when a poster who is obviously not posting in good faith comes on with a ridiculous gish gallop of easily refuted nonsense, and several posters pop up to tell him how very brave he is to post anti feminist, nasty, misogynistic guff on a feminist board.

Fucksake, I came here to be entertained! Quickly went to see all OP's posts for the undoubtedly brilliant rebuttals and yet none there were. Wasting my time!

Yes, because, you see, in the words of the OP, "woman" is a "social role" that Afghan women play, which is wholly unrelated to their femaleness.

It makes me so ANGRY to see such foolish, naive assertions. Talk about culturally colonialist western privilege! Who needs a word for the female half of the global population anyway, they say - even as Afghan females (can't say "women" now, can I?) live as slaves.

The utter irony of the OP's bizarre "what condition are you using to define womanhood..." and reference to every woman's experience as "unique", EVEN AS the OP reduces the female half of the population, in all our glorious variety and limitless potential, into socially determined "roles" is... well... jaw-dropping.

Such unthinking complacency.

And I just checked to see if they'd come back to defend their arguments after seeing them challenged, suspecting what I'd see but giving them the benefit of the doubt a second time - and...

Nada. Not a follow-up post in sight.

What on earth did you hope to achieve, OP?

Brilliant 👍

Thankyou...