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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 22:25

😂

Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 22:38

onceandneveragain · 18/06/2025 22:16

OP I'm a bit bemused - I only clicked on one of your links (the BBC sport one) and it doesn't support your argument at all?
Its split into the 2 views so already half of it is arguing (convincingly) against trans women in women's sports, and even the half arguing for it is a) a trans athlete so already biased and b) whose own positi
on is "its complicated" and "there are no easy answers" - even makes this analogy:

"However, you never put a big boxer in the ring with a little boxer, no matter how good the little boxer is. No matter how hard the little boxer works, trains, how competitive they are, they can't beat a big boxer. The size difference means there's no such thing as meaningful competition between big boxers and little boxers."

So I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove? If anything if I was on the fence it would sway me the other way if even a trans athlete couldn't convince herself!

That link is as you say, hilariously not what the OP thought.

Harper understands very well that in many sports there are physical advantages that male people will never be able to overcome with suppression of testosterone. Harper believes that there are 'some' sports where you can yet cannot produce a study, despite huge funding directly from the IOC, that shows this.

Either way, Harper will often argue that there are still advantages, but 'inclusion' is vital.

So, it was Dr Ross Tucker who is very much an expert on this topic who discusses the opposite to the OP's point and Harper who agrees with some of the things that Tucker said.

Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 22:41

I am beginning to suspect that the OP has copied that list of stuff from somewhere and plopped in here. When I read the opening post, I felt a sense of deja vu.

I suspect that the OP has not read all the links and just assumed that the links supported the points. But it all seemed too familiar.

Considering Limey has just posted on another thread about Dunning-Kruger effect in an attempt to gotcha posters, I am really thinking that was projection on their behalf.

Datun · 18/06/2025 22:58

I am actually loving the way posters have popped up to support OP telling OP how much they agree.

In my head I imagine them like this, on a WhatsApp group, congratulating each other on their irrefutable arguments and dress sense.

Sensitive content
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Helleofabore · 18/06/2025 23:00

Datun · 18/06/2025 22:58

I am actually loving the way posters have popped up to support OP telling OP how much they agree.

In my head I imagine them like this, on a WhatsApp group, congratulating each other on their irrefutable arguments and dress sense.

Thanks for the sensitive content warning Datun!!!

Datun · 18/06/2025 23:27

I'm always mindful of your sensibilities Helle 😄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 23:38

Datun · 18/06/2025 22:58

I am actually loving the way posters have popped up to support OP telling OP how much they agree.

In my head I imagine them like this, on a WhatsApp group, congratulating each other on their irrefutable arguments and dress sense.

😂

murasaki · 18/06/2025 23:43

I really shouldn't have clicked on that right before bed. Nightmares coming up.

MyQuirkyTraybake · 19/06/2025 00:07

Thanks LimeFinch, you seem really knowledgable on this topic. Maybe you can help me. What is the definition of gender? I keep asking this and searching but I can't find one.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 01:37

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

All that gish gallop in the hope of hiding this very very simple fact that you accidentally let slip:

Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female.

Yes. You are 100% correct. This thing you call "gender" is not the same thing as sex.

So the question you need to answer if that if sex and gender are not the same thing, why do you insist that people who are female cannot define themselves based on their sex as a social group that excludes male people? If gender is not sex, why is someone's gender even part of the conversation that is about sex-based rights and language?

Why is this "gender" of "woman" that male people experience somehow not the same as sex to the degree that male people can be it, but exactly the same as sex when it is deployed as the reason that male people should have the right to resources and spaces that were designated female-only back in the day when "woman" simply meant "female"?

JessaWoo · 19/06/2025 01:55

Even I think that was ridiculous.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/06/2025 07:43

The bloody cheek of some people (men) turning up on Mumsnet, of all places, to mansplain that biological sex is less important than a set of stereotypes 🤣.

TheaBrandt1 · 19/06/2025 07:49

Cringing for this op and the little “I agree” posters who aren’t able to refute any of the counter arguments I see!

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 07:53

Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.

Wrong. They are not irreversible. And they are not lifesaving which is WHY left wing governments all around the world have stopped them.

Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
ApocalipstickNow · 19/06/2025 08:01

MyQuirkyTraybake · 19/06/2025 00:07

Thanks LimeFinch, you seem really knowledgable on this topic. Maybe you can help me. What is the definition of gender? I keep asking this and searching but I can't find one.

I think, at this stage, you may as well be shouting “what are the 39 Steps?!”😂

Waitwhat23 · 19/06/2025 08:03

OP, when even other TRA's are elbowing you and hissing 'will you shut up!', it might be time to have a wee period of contemplation.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 19/06/2025 08:06

It was nice of LimeFinch to line up their best evidence all in one place for us to debunk at leisure. And doing a WPATH - writing headline conclusions that either have nothing to do with the linked evidence or directly contradict them.

If that's all they've got then we've got nothing to worry about.

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:06

There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.

WRONG! Over 5000 transwomen victors, 27 world records, 109 U.S. records, $1.6 million in prize money. Just in the last few years. It's an epidemic. http://shewon.org and www.hecheated.org

Even if it were 'only a few' how many is enough to justify women and girls having fair sport and safe sport? GIVE US A NUMBER that you think you would concede that women and girls deserve our human rights. Come on, how many? To us, ONE is ONE TOO MANY. We don't say 'oh it's only a few Lance Armstrongs or dopers, why bother'.

Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.

WRONG! Womens categories were created because males are stronger and faster and women have no hope in competing against males. Even Serena Williams said the lowest seeded male would beat her.

https://thesportjournal.org/article/a-history-of-women-in-sport-prior-to-title-ix/
https://womeninsport.org/safe-and-fair-sport-for-women-and-girls/

and

"Yes, one of the primary reasons women's sports were created was to provide fair and equitable opportunities for female athletes to compete and achieve recognition. While initially separate from men's sports due to societal norms, the establishment of women's categories aimed to address the historical lack of access and opportunity for women in athletics. This included addressing physiological differences and ensuring women could compete on a level playing field.

Here's a more detailed look:
Historical Context:
Traditionally, women faced significant barriers to participating in sports, often excluded due to societal expectations about their roles and physical capabilities.

Addressing Inequality:
Establishing separate leagues and competitions for women was a crucial step in creating opportunities where women could develop their athletic abilities, compete at various levels, and achieve recognition.

Fairness and Physiological Differences:
The recognition of biological differences between males and females in sports is a key factor in creating fair competition. This includes acknowledging the unique physical attributes and potential performance differences, which led to the establishment of separate categories to ensure fair play.

Evolving Understanding:
Over time, there's been a growing understanding that women's sports should be both inclusive and safe, with ongoing discussions and adjustments to policies to address fairness and inclusion.

Beyond Participation:
The focus has expanded beyond just participation to include equal pay, opportunities for sponsorship, and representation in leadership roles within sports."

http://www.shewon.org

https://t.co/Vh2Us2ArtY

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:11

There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.

WRONG! Oestrogen does one fifth of eff all. It does not reduce strength nor performance, nor does it reduce limb length, pelvic rotation or heart and lung size and capacity. All studies have PROVEN there is no real reduction in male advantage.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39716906/

Reflections on Trans Arguments
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 08:20

I’d missed this howler in the OP:

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.

mate, no one here thinks it’s because men were being beaten by women, that’s a batshit TRA argument. Did you mean to write “women”? 😂

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:25

Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.

WRONG! “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are SEXED titles, not 'gender titles' or 'social roles'. A man is an adult human male. A woman is an adult human female. A boy is child human male. A girl is a child human female. These are SEXED TERMS. And using Stonewall as a link makes you look like a joke.

The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.

WRONG! The idea that a male has the same lived experience as a girl; growing from a girl to getting periods, being whistled at, experiencing misogyny etc, is ridiculous. It's akin to saying Rachel Dolezal has the same history to African Americans. Male and females have separate histories and separate lived experiences. Males as the oppressor males, females as the oppressed class. As males, transwomen do not share the same history of oppression or lived experience, as the males with Male Privilege they are.

If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Transwomen are MALES with PENIS AND TESTICLES and of the oppressor sex class. Women are adult human females. No definition of womanhood includes males of any type.

No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans.

WRONG! Children all around the world are being convinced they are trans by their teachers who refuse to tell their parents the child's new name and pronouns. This has been testified by many transchildren themselves.

If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth

No one is 'assigned' a sex at birth, please don't use unscientific cult buzz terms. Sex is assigned the moment the sperm enters the ova, observed at the 20 week scan, and again at birth.

The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues

Yes they are good at taking advantage of children with autism. And please don't use the homophobic slur 'que-r'.

Now that you've had your arse handed to you with facts and evidence, and your points demolished, now would be a good time to admit you're in an anti-women hate cult and you've been misled by lies, distortions, misrepresentations and false statistics.

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:28

Has the OP been back?

Or did they slink back to Reddit to lick their wounds?

😂😂😂

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:30

If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition.

There is. Having a body that develops to facilitate the production of large gametes.

HTH OP.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 08:30

He won’t be back. Mission accomplished.

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:33

We all know the OP won't have the guts to come back after they've been well and truly demolished. They've embarrassed themselves and showed their deep ignorance and lack of education on this subject. Other readers will be able to read their embarrassing post and the replies, and decide accordingly.

Yet another Gender Ideology activist crashes and burns and embarrasses themself. Just another day on FWR.