Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

TRA's - 'transwomen are women. In all circumstances. No debate'
Women - 'hang on, there are certain things which need to be single sex for women's safety and dignity. Rape crisis services, prisons etc. Surely these things are single sex, meaning biological women'
TRA's - 'no, bigot. To exclude them from such services is literally genocide. Die in a grease fire'.
Women - 'can we compromise? Third spaces, open categories etc?'
TRA's - 'nope. That's the epitome of transphobia. Capitulation or nothing. And if you choose to avoid such services while we are using them, that is also transphobia'.
Women - winning a supreme court judgment which clarifies that women were right all along and having a wee glass of champagne to celebrate a years long legal battle
TRA's - 'literally genocide. You just want us not to exist!!!'

I have only ever voted Labour but spoiled by ballot at the last election. I couldn’t bring myself to vote for my sitting MP who is rabidly TWAW and anyone who doesn’t agree is a nasty bigot.

I will never vote for this particular Labour MP again and any future candidate would need to be supportive of women’s rights but that doesn’t mean I’m about to vote for Reform.

Labour and the unions have been a huge let down but hen again the unions have very often let women down. They are happy to be funded through our subs but are often staffed at the highest levels by misogynists.

So I’m not currently a fan of the idea that the Left is by default supportive of women.

It does mean that by default you're supporting the opposition. And the opposition may no longer be the Tories (and anyway, Tories/Reform same difference)

I've just read that several times. I'm a bit tired, so it's possible I'm misreading, but -

Firstly, transwomen and other women implies that transwomen are a type of woman, does it not? I don't accept that.

Secondly, I do believe that transwomen have different DNA to women, almost by definition. The 'almost' is because of DSDs and me not being a biologist with a complete understanding of genetics, so it would be overconfident for me personally to make that claim for all transwomen. But, at least, the vast majority of transwomen have the same DNA (at least in terms of which sex they are) as the vast majority of men. And all transwomen are of the class of human which doesn't provide large gametes, but does produce small gametes if their testicles are in working order.

It’s entirely down to the parties to choose to develop policies which don’t discriminate against women. If a woman chooses to take her vote elsewhere that’s her prerogative.

It is down to each individual voter to look at all the options and choose the one that suits them personally. Just because you vote one way for a set of policies doent make you evil, it makes you exactly the same as every other voters that makes their own mind up.

Painting people who choose to vote a different way to you as the devil is why Trump's they/them ad hit home and won him the election.

Well then the left need to get their shit together and remember that women actually have the right to vote.

Well who do you think can prevent that?

So many people seem to think that it is women's responsibility to take one for the team. The thinking seems to be "look you are fucked either way so do the decent thing and don't take the rest of us down with you", as if the poor Left just has no choice except to sign up for anti-women regressive policies.

If the risk that anti-women policies leading left-voting women to switch sides or abstain creates a tipping point that lets Reform or whoever in, surely the group who actually have the most power to prevent that is the Left parties who can at any point say "the cost of driving women away is too high, women have rights to an we need to protect them and (crucially) this is how we will do that and we put it in our manifesto to show women we are in good faith".

Until that happens, forgive me if I don't feel it's my duty as a woman to throw myself on the fucking fire to protect the rights of people who won't even consider protecting mine.

@StandFirm It does mean that by default you're supporting the opposition.

Then someone better get on with persuading the Left to see sense because I am not going to be a turkey voting for Christmas just because of the threat that the Turkeys Voting for Thanksgiving party will get in instead.

It's like the whole 'wheesht for Indy' bullshite.

No.

Then let’s hope that the left leaning parties get there acts together and stop leaving the door wide open to Reform.

Just as I have no illusions that anything other than losing money will make a large number of organisations abide by the law, Labour will only support women’s rights because they fear losing votes and not from a point of principle.

Quite frankly right now I don’t care that they will be acting from a self preservation standpoint- we just need to stop the juggernaut of TRA politics and get back on an even keel.

Yeah, fuck that.

I'm not supporting anyone, be default or otherwise.

If the left want to beat the opposition, they need to be better than them. They need to win my vote.

Somewhat are we supposed to do? Carry on voting for a party that not only puts Trans rights ahead of women's rights but also lie and gas light us about what harm it does to women and whether anyone ever mentions it 'on the doorstep'.

I'm never voting for the Labour Party again, after this nihilistic death spiral they are putting into law. So unless someone puts together a leftist party that isn't trying to destroy the whole of UK, the options are limited.

fair enough. But I will never vote for Labour until they start supporting women’s rights and that will only be when my sitting MP isn’t the candidate. I will never support this particular person again. If that means I’m in bed with the right wing in your opinion then so be it.

The TRA agenda has only been able to get this far because too many women for all sorts of reasons have not stood up and said “no”.

And how has the political system in this country gotten to a dreary, 'I suppose they're the least shite option so if I must' scenario? I used to be excited about voting. To feel that there would be tangible change. As it is, the only option is simply to change one shite situation for another.

Until that happens, forgive me if I don't feel it's my duty as a woman to throw myself on the fucking fire to protect the rights of people who won't even consider protecting mine.

The burden of sacrifice is always expected of women and when they refuse to throw themselves on the fire they get blamed for the flames not burning high enough.

No. Respect women and their rights, earn our votes and if you don't the consequences that follow are the fault of those who failed repeatedly to do so. If you value women and our votes then fucking show us.

You realise if the Left believe they have women's votes without having to support our rights against genderist aggression there is no hope whatsoever that they will do anything to support us?

There are far more of us but the Left's current assessment is that we are less batshit and will vote for the broad best while the TRAs won't. The Left need to understand if they cannot protect our interests they will lose our votes

The only rational strategy for women to make it clear our votes are dependant on our confidence that a party will support women's sex based rights, social legitimacy and political voice.

Hear hear!

Bloody hell why do women get the blame for the leftist parties credulous, craven and dishonest abandonment of them?! Women are not obliged to suck it up.

Once more, for the gallery: it is not my duty, as a woman, to hold my nose and vote for a bunch of self-righteous misogynists (or clueless dickheads, as it may be) because they're leftier than the other misogynists (or clueless dickheads, as it may be) and therefore identify as The Goodies.

It is, in fact, their job to persuade me to vote for them, perhaps by appealing to me and showing they understand my concerns and will act on my priorities.

So far, they haven't. So they haven't had my vote for years.

If The Baddies win because The Goodies are so complacent or fucking stupid that they take my vote for granted and fuck me over in the interests of a few entitled men and posh kids with blue hair, that's on them. Not me.

TL:DR go talk to Labour. They're the only ones with the power to change things.

Yes. I'm another man who wants the many women (including ones who see themselves as trans) I have reason to care about, and the ones I don't know personally, to have the dignity and relative safety of women's spaces. We, and all men, should keep out. For akkakk and for me, this is no burden at all, but even if it was, we should do it out of respect for women and their needs. Who doesn't do things that are personally inconvenient because we know that it's right to do them?

many people have a very narrow view of gender

You are confusing SEX with 'gender'. And sex, by the fact there is the oppressor sex class (males) and the oppressed sex class (females), and females are oppressed based on our sex and our rights assigned based on our sex, means it is very narrow based not only on biology but necessity.

fanatically obsessed with the idea that trans rights should be curtailed - and maybe eliminated altogether.

Nobody is interested in seeing trans 'rights' curtailed or eliminated. Especially when it's about privileges and stolen rights they never had, in the first place. We are interested in seeing the rights of the female sex class returned.

Nothing more, nothing less than that.

Oh we have the misogynistic tropes all here;

"bitter" TERFs (what's the matter, forgot to use witch or hag or bitch?), and,

You aren't concentrating on 'real' issues (despite the fact females can multitask) which is really just as an excuse because you don't want us discussing women's oppression at all.

Having female only spaces for women and girls affects 100% of the female sex every single day, and is the difference between a woman participating in society and going back to the Urinary Leash days and self-excluding.

You don't understand that outside of your privileged misogynistic echo chamber, polls all show that the overwhelming majority of people support the retention of single sex spaces for the vulnerable female sex. This, is why those like yourself in your echo chamber are deeply out of touch with society and why feminists are winning the war.

Do you mean trans women? Not trans men. Evidence shows transwomen sexually offend at a greater rate than other males.

And it's not just about safety. It's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze.

It's LEFT WING FEMINISTS that are driving this, not the "right wing". Please stop promoting misogynist myths. You are not listening to feminists. Having female only spaces makes us safer, BY DEFINITION.