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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
Haulage · 21/06/2025 16:42

At this point, people who say 'there's no problem' are either deeply credulous or have deliberately hobbled themselves to be uninformed.

Credulous, craven or dishonest. Those are the options imo

greencartbluecart · 21/06/2025 16:56

There is no problem other than

transwomen seemingly committing sexual offenses at a higher rate than men in general

none conforming and homosexual chikdren being given “treatment” with the side effects of sterilisation

yes miss nothing to see, it’s really detracting from the real problems facing women and girls

Helleofabore · 21/06/2025 17:02

re the ‘only a few’ fallacy

AN ANALYSIS ON HOW JUST A FEW MALE PEOPLE CAN CAUSE HARM TO MANY FEMALE ATHLETES - THE FALSITY OF 'JUST ONE'

@hecheateddotorg
18th March 2025

To analyze performance differences between "trans"-identified male and actual female participants in girls' sport, we need look no further than girls' high school track and field.
Track and field provides the clearest data as it is an individual sport and has had the highest number of recorded male participants to date at the high school level.

There are a total of 37 male athletes on record who have participated in girls' high school track and field in the United States.

Of these 37, one athlete participated in only one race due to the cancellation of the season during the COVID 19 pandemic. Another athlete participated in a tech/private school league that did not participate in a state championship. These two athletes will be excluded from the data.

Out of 1,276 completed events, male athletes finished as follows:
1st place: 440 (34%)
2nd place: 188 (15%)
3rd place: 123 (10%)
Other: 485 (41%)

Male athletes came in 1st 34% of the time, only 7% less often than they did than any other place outside the top 3.

They finished in the top three in 59% of their events and outside the top eight in only 19% of their events.
24 of the 35 male athletes (68%) qualified for their respective State Championship meet in a total of 136 events.

When looking at athletes competing against same-sex peers, depending on the state and division of competition, anywhere from 5 to 15% of athletes are expected to qualify.

For example in states that use regional-sectional qualification, the top 4 finishers at a regional meet (often with 2 heats of 8 runners each) qualify for the sectional meet where the top 4 finishers at the sectional then advance to State. This means that out of 32 runners at regionals, only 4 (12.5%) will advance to State.

This number also does not take into account the fact that only the best runners on a team will be entered in a regional meet and often the same runner will qualify in multiple events. A runner may also have a higher chance of qualifying in a relay as 8 runners (top 2 teams) advance to state rather than 4 in this type of qualification.

In other types of qualification or less competitive, smaller regions, it may be easier to qualify.

At the State Championship meet, there are typically 24 entries in each event. 1 of the 24 will win, meaning 4% of the 15% of athletes who have qualified for state will be a state champion, or 0.6%.

Of the 24 male athletes who qualified for state against girls, 11 of them (46%) have won a state championship title, or 31% of the total.

4 of the 35 male athletes (11%) have also achieved a top 10 national ranking.

The percentage of male athletes who have been in the top 10 of all track and field athletes in the female division in the entire nation is higher than the percentage of female athletes who have won a state title.

To find the percentage of female athletes who are in the top 10, we can take the 57 indoor and outdoor events ranked on milesplit. com multiplied by 10 (10 athletes in each) then divide by the total number of female athletes in high school track and field - 506,015 (according to nfhs. org).

This number does not take into account the fact that many athletes in the top 10 appear there in multiple events and several of the 57 events are less commonly run. (All 4 male athletes in the top 10 achieved that placement in a main event).

This means less than 0.11 percent of female athletes achieve a top 10 ranking.

"But not all states require hormone therapy!"

It is true that some states do not require males to undergo any sort of testosterone suppression or medical intervention in order to compete against girls.

We can therefore, look to the athletes who have reportedly begun "identifying" as the opposite sex and undergone "medical interventions" prior to puberty or in early middle school as it has been proposed that males who do so are in line with "average female performance."

There are 3 athletes who have reportedly "transitioned" prior to puberty. Based on their feminized appearances and high voices, we can infer this included puberty blockers.

All 3 athletes qualified for the state championship meet, 2 of the athletes were conference champions, and one athletes was not only a state champion and New England champion, but he was ranked in the national top 10.

None of these performances are in line with an "average" athlete. In fact, the national ranking out of three athletes is statistically unlikely to the point of being impossible without an athletic advantage.

"But you just know about the athletes who are good. There could be more you don't hear about because they don't win anything."
When we look at the expected percentages, we can see that about 6 out of 1,000 athletes win state and 1 out of 1,000 are in the top 10 national ranking.

In order to see the 24 males as state champions and 4 males in the top 10, there should be around 4,000 males who have competed in the girls' division in track and field. (3,965 additional athletes, none of whom can have won a state title).

There have been 37 on record.
Numerous state senators and legislators have come forward testifying to the number of "trans"-identifying males participating in their states.

When these legislators testify that there have "only been 2" in the state, or in the case of Ohio, 17 athletes in 8 years, and these numbers include all sports, and when male athletes have been banned from participating in girls' sports in about half of the states in the nation, it is not likely that there are an additional 3,963 male athletes that not only does nobody know about, but who also have not won a single state title.

In regards to the prepubescent "transitioners," there should be an additional 1,000 of them who have not won a state title or achieved a top 10 ranking. This is also highly unlikely, as we've seen multiple prepubescent "transitioners" in other sports also winning national and state championship titles.

Male participation in the female division is not just unfair, it is blatantly so.

These percentages do not reflect the cost to the female athletes behind them. Just 2 male athletes in cross country and track and field in Maine have negatively impacted over 2,000 female athletes.

If each male athlete negatively impacted 500 female on average, that means over 18,500 female high school track and field athletes in the United States have been forced to compete against and have been negatively impacted by these boys.
This includes loss of titles, loss of medals, loss of relay spots, loss of entries in large meets, loss of qualifications for championships, loss of records, loss of privacy, and loss of confidence.

*2 male athletes in Maine negatively impacted over 1,600 girls

3 boys in Washington, over 2,000

This is what happens when you dismiss this as an important issue. And declare that it is ‘only a few’.

Helleofabore · 21/06/2025 17:02

This is what happens when you dismiss this as an important issue. And declare that it is ‘only a few’.

Are there other significant issues? Yes. But why the fuck are we constantly being derided for including this as an important issue as well?

Just because one person believes the prioritisation of women and girl’s needs against gender identity is lower than other priorities doesn’t give them the right to deride and judge others who disagree. It just makes that person someone who chooses to censure other women’s choices which looks suspiciously like authoritarianism to me.

But some of those doing it feel righteous about it. Good for them! Well done to them!

Waitwhat23 · 21/06/2025 17:12

mymindispuff · 21/06/2025 13:45

Bloody hell! I personally think this whole trans debate is utter nonsense concocted by the right wing. On the day of that judgement, I noticed there were several news items on women murdered by men which sat really uncomfortably next to pictures of women celebrating and Rowling smoking that cigar. For me it feels ridiculous and I don't think it makes anyone safer. Our daughters (regardless of how they dress or identify) are not safer, sexual assaults, domestic violence, harassment are all on the up. Go read Laura Bates and Jess Davies latest books and tell me I'm wrong. WE ARE BEING PLAYED.

For anyone wanting to find out more about the institutional capture of organisations across Scotland, leading to women being told to 'reframe your trauma' by the CEO of a rape crisis centre, and violent male sex offenders being placed in the female prison estate following a self id policy set by a lobbying group, I would suggest you read the book 'The Women who Wouldn't Wheesht'.

And then tell me it's all a 'right wing conspiracy theory'. (Spoiler....it's not)

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 17:43

On the right wing topic - as far as I'm concerned, it's more that the reactionary far right loves to stir the pot and use the gender debate for their own cynical political ends. Those ends I would argue are antithetical with equality between men and women.
Has the progressive left failed? That's a good question, but even if it had, that does not mean fascism is a viable alternative.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 17:47

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 17:43

On the right wing topic - as far as I'm concerned, it's more that the reactionary far right loves to stir the pot and use the gender debate for their own cynical political ends. Those ends I would argue are antithetical with equality between men and women.
Has the progressive left failed? That's a good question, but even if it had, that does not mean fascism is a viable alternative.

OK, but women's rights aren't fascist.

Why isn't the political left defending women's rights?

Waitwhat23 · 21/06/2025 17:53

Oh aye, those of us criticising the utter failure of the Scottish Government which declares itself to be super progressive and lefty are just sprinting off to sign up as fascists /s

Or maybe the left/centre left have fucked up and alienated a massive section of women who find themselves now politically homeless.

And maybe the election campaign of 'vote for us, you bigot!' isn't a winning strategy.

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 17:54

Of course women's rights aren't fascist! I mean precisely that fascism never promotes women's rights. That's just by looking at history.
The political left does defend women's rights - the point is you obviously have felt badly let down by self ID. That's the crux of the issue. But it doesn't mean that everything on the left deserves to be binned. By the way, I also think that the right can make good points too. I have both conservative and progressive friends here and in the US. What I cannot abide are fundamentalists, and especially those with a sneaky religious agenda. That is why I have it in for MAGA and do not trust Reform one bit (because of who is funding them in the background)
It's not a case of left = anti-woman, right= at least they can define woman = champions of women. That's just not the reality.

I have shared this video upthread but I think this is a really thoughtful summary of how things went wrong in the US (but I think a lot applies here too):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlbNFsAGFRc

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/06/2025 17:59

The political left does defend women's rights - the point is you obviously have felt badly let down by self ID.

the left cannt defend women’s rights if it cannot define what a women actually is. It’s simply impossible to defend what you cannot define.

so we don’t feel let down by self ID we have been let down by self ID

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:04

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/06/2025 17:59

The political left does defend women's rights - the point is you obviously have felt badly let down by self ID.

the left cannt defend women’s rights if it cannot define what a women actually is. It’s simply impossible to defend what you cannot define.

so we don’t feel let down by self ID we have been let down by self ID

OK. But again, I think going absolutist about it is a mistake because no party is all good or all bad. You still have to look at everything in context and make a decision as to what - on balance- you can support.
The nativist agenda that will have us all turn into breeders is not my thing. Maybe it is for you but I'll stick with imperfect politics that I believe best safeguard my right to vote, my right to decide what to do with my own body, and does not discard wholesale all notions of equality and inclusion in the workplace.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/06/2025 18:09

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:04

OK. But again, I think going absolutist about it is a mistake because no party is all good or all bad. You still have to look at everything in context and make a decision as to what - on balance- you can support.
The nativist agenda that will have us all turn into breeders is not my thing. Maybe it is for you but I'll stick with imperfect politics that I believe best safeguard my right to vote, my right to decide what to do with my own body, and does not discard wholesale all notions of equality and inclusion in the workplace.

You do know this is a British forum right?? American political lunacy is not our problem. Im an infertile woman who has voted Labour her entire life

and for all your grandstanding my point still stands. Law depends on definition and you cannot defend what you cannot define. If the definition of women includes “and some men” then it’s not a definition of women is it

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 18:12

@StandFirm There are members of the current Labour government whose current position appears to be, "Surely we didn't intend to give sex based rights to AFAB people which exclude trans women? Trans women are the most important women of all! We must fix this!"

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 21/06/2025 18:16

LostInCatsFur · 20/06/2025 17:17

I don't think she believes she has actually changed sex at all. That would be impossible. But who knows what goes on inside someone's head. She seems happy with it. But the climate around trans people makes me sick with worry and yes talking about it does make me cry.

May I ask how long you have known that your child (I think your adult daughter?) has said she is trans? Because if the revelation that she sees herself as trans is recent, your emotions will understandably be all over the place.

I have an adult trans-identified son. It's about 3 years since he told us. My emotions veered from "oh well, he's usually sensible, I can handle this" to absolute depths of pain, and back again. On one occasion I was driving on a motorway, had some extremely dark thoughts, and had to work very hard at suppressing them until I could pull into a service station. I am so relieved that I managed to get to a safe place before causing a pile up, or perhaps just crashing my car into a barrier and 'only' endangering my passenger and me.

Since then, emotionally I have become much more stable. For me, some of my needs were to work out what I actually thought. I am a lifelong Guardian reader, noticeably left-leaning, with both a scientific and a religious background. I really struggled with the challenges to my sense of reality, and to my worldview. This board has been a lifeline to me, as it is the only place where I have come across all the arguments for and against the various worldviews and positions on trans matters. Nowhere else allows honest discussions with both sides of an argument presented.

Yes, there is a clear women's rights bias (not that there is anything wrong with that) and I have learned that I was getting a very one-sided set of information from the Guardian, which posters here have acted as a correction to. There are also sometimes things that I find uncomfortable; people here can be very blunt, often out of frustration. I sometimes also feel that all trans people, and particularly those who are male, are described as if they are all the same. I take these views with a pinch of salt. I sincerely hope that my son is not the stereotypical transwoman complete with unusual levels of misogyny and motivated by fetish; he doesn't (as far as I know!) ever present in a sexualised way. But overall, I have found a huge amount of insight on Mumsnet, reasoned arguments, scientific literacy, and a good deal of empathy. And now I know what I think about these issues of sex and gender, and why.

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:16

Grandstanding? I am talking about the left in general and I am concerned about the direction of travel here in the UK; we live in a globalised world though and what has happened culturally in America has had an influence over here. In fact I was not the one who brought up the US SC ruling. Someone else did.
I'm trying to engage into a debate on what type of politics can serve us best. I am voicing my opinion, not attacking or insulting anyone, just taking part. It is a free forum in a (for now) free country.

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 18:12

@StandFirm There are members of the current Labour government whose current position appears to be, "Surely we didn't intend to give sex based rights to AFAB people which exclude trans women? Trans women are the most important women of all! We must fix this!"

Of course, any bias in favour of one particular group is alienating to the rest and I think those people you refer to are doing the left a great disservice.
All I'm pointing towards though is not unconditional allegiance to a political tribe, but a clear-eyed (as much as possible), empathetic approach to women's rights and also to marginalised communities. Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Frankly the far right terrifies me. They are snaking their way into the women's vote but only to subvert it. Ok, that's my opinion and you don't need to believe it. But like I also said about Brexit back then, I'd love to be wrong (because I am sadly pretty sure we'll end up with Reform as our next government).

akkakk · 21/06/2025 18:36

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/06/2025 09:26

se. Show me evidence that women are being attacked by trans men, particularly in toilets or other single sex spaces.

the thing is it’s not just a fucking safety issue. I don’t want men in my single sex spaces because they are men!! I want my bloody privacy, I want my dignity, I want my own fucking stuff as woman because as a woman I’m allowed to say no to men!!!

how about my husband is allowed into women’s spaces? He’s kind and gentle and wouldn’t hurt anyone. Should he be allowed into women’s spaces?? If not why not? He’s a man just like all the lovely trans women we keep hearing about. He’s lovely too so why not?

100% this…

  • As a man, I have zero desire to be in women’s single-sex spaces
  • I respect that single-sex spaces play a valuable role for many people
  • I value single-sex spaces for me and other men
  • I don’t want women in men’s changing rooms or toilets either
  • I don’t want my wife (in the NHS) to have to share her changing space with men

All of this is normal, it is how 99+% of men (and women feel)

The very fact that any man wants access to women’s single-sex spaces or services is a concern, it is a safeguarding issue and makes their intentions obviously questionable. There never has been, never will be a genuine reason why any man needs such access…

So debates on violence stats etc are irrelevant, the simple fact that any male makes the demand to have access to what is not theirs automatically makes them a part of the issue, part of the stats.

There is no such thing as a man using female changing spaces or toilets without harm, their very presence is harm, in TRA parlance it is literal violence to women. So every person who is born male, and is therefore a man, in female spaces is enacting violence towards women, they are unwanted so have forced themselves on women - that is violence.

BeLemonNow · 21/06/2025 18:45

Those claiming that TERFs are "anti trans" conveniently "forget" we aren't suggesting removing transgender as a protected characteristic under the Equality Act (as far as I am aware).

It is illegal to discriminate against someone for being transgender: sacked from a job, denied housing - which can legal on most personal characteristics.

In fact transgender individuals actually get more rights in some respects. They have the right to have time of work for surgeries for transition etc.

Most people don't have the right to time off work for medical treatment (excluding pregnancy) and I and many others have had problems when we needed time off work for medical appointments.

Frankly I am fed up of the entitlement of TRAs. They want more and more and more and don't care about women they trample. Including the most vulnerable women, like those who want same sex domestic violence support groups. Who want to change clothes in private from the opposite biological sex.

It's not much to ask is it? Let's turn the tables over!

WithSilverBells · 21/06/2025 18:50

Igneococcus · 21/06/2025 18:31

Janice Turner's comment in the Times feels kind of apposite to the left/right discussion. Not sure if it's been shared anywhere:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/83c7b2a1-c2f9-482f-92b7-273cd6848995?shareToken=e66560e99cacf7e489d7176bc5131adb

Janice Turner and Matthew Syed were the reasons that I stuck with The Times as long as I did. Had to let it go in the end though because so many articles by other staff were so badly written or edited that I had to go to 'comments' to find out what they were really trying to say.

Igneococcus · 21/06/2025 18:54

WithSilverBells · 21/06/2025 18:50

Janice Turner and Matthew Syed were the reasons that I stuck with The Times as long as I did. Had to let it go in the end though because so many articles by other staff were so badly written or edited that I had to go to 'comments' to find out what they were really trying to say.

And also Alex Massie for me but he is probably a bigger draw for us in Scotland.
Looking at the comments under this article there are an awful lot who haven't quite grasped what she is saying, I think.
Matthew Syed is great, I agree.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 18:57

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:26

Of course, any bias in favour of one particular group is alienating to the rest and I think those people you refer to are doing the left a great disservice.
All I'm pointing towards though is not unconditional allegiance to a political tribe, but a clear-eyed (as much as possible), empathetic approach to women's rights and also to marginalised communities. Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Frankly the far right terrifies me. They are snaking their way into the women's vote but only to subvert it. Ok, that's my opinion and you don't need to believe it. But like I also said about Brexit back then, I'd love to be wrong (because I am sadly pretty sure we'll end up with Reform as our next government).

Unfortunately, as long as the trans rights lobby continues to take the view that trans women must be considered women in all circumstances, and that actual female women must not be allowed to have any words, spaces, services or sports which exclude them, women's rights and trans "rights" are mutually exclusive, yes.

Haulage · 21/06/2025 19:07

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 18:26

Of course, any bias in favour of one particular group is alienating to the rest and I think those people you refer to are doing the left a great disservice.
All I'm pointing towards though is not unconditional allegiance to a political tribe, but a clear-eyed (as much as possible), empathetic approach to women's rights and also to marginalised communities. Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Frankly the far right terrifies me. They are snaking their way into the women's vote but only to subvert it. Ok, that's my opinion and you don't need to believe it. But like I also said about Brexit back then, I'd love to be wrong (because I am sadly pretty sure we'll end up with Reform as our next government).

Your posts seem to suggest that you think women here are proposing to start voting reform or similar en masse? Is that what you’re trying to express?

I agree the right wing of politics isn’t great for women, and what many of us are saying is that neither is the left wing. Both sides have shown themselves to be incredibly uncaring and thoughtless when it comes to having consideration for women, and cowards when they should have stood up for us. This has caused many women, often lifelong Labour/ Green/LD voters, to find ourselves to be politically homeless because of our parties’ stance on the issue. That does not mean we like Farage or his ilk. We certainly don’t need lectures about it!

StandFirm · 21/06/2025 19:13

Your posts seem to suggest that you think women here are proposing to start voting reform or similar en masse? Is that what you’re trying to express?
I agree the right wing of politics isn’t great for women, and what many of us are saying is that neither is the left wing.

No, I don't think women will vote en masse for Reform but the ones that do might give them the edge they need. I'd just hate to see them win by default.

Arran2024 · 21/06/2025 19:13

All the political parties have strong supporters of trans rights - it cuts across political lines, though the underlying reason for it may come from a different place.

Ignoring personal connections to the LGBT+ community i would suggest the following:

Labour
part of universal, progtressive social policies which look to include marginalised groups

Conservatives
Free market, free personal choice, do whatever you like and the state shouldn't be involved

Lib Dem
Bit of both of the above, with links to big pharmacy and wanting to appeal to people with liberal views

SNP
Trying to model Scotland on Eire to attract investment from US tech and financial services companies for whom LGBT+ culture really matters. Differentiating Scotland from England.

Greens
Wanting to reshape society and patriarchal structures have to be toppled to create a new, better society

Reform
Not interested. Harking back to a more conservative world where woke isn't a thing.