Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

Human sex is binary and can't be changed. Because we're mammals. The rest of the animal kingdom has a lot more fun, clownfish can change sex, crocodiles' sex is determined by what temperature the eggs are incubated at, and earthworms are hermaphrodites.

But not humans. Mammals are boring bastards.

I learnt recently that a type of Skimmia can be a hermaphrodite. Never knew that!

Skimmia can be hermaphrodite, but human sex is binary.

The Chilling Effect.

When someone you know has a gender questioning child and it kills all rational conversation about sex and how sex is not gender and you can't change sex within a half mile radius of you.

This it is impossible to have a conversation which is balanced.

Then those parents come here and have the shock of their lives because suddenly they aren't in Kansas anymore and people speak freely instead of in hushed whispers where they can't be heard by the parents who have been fully signed up to the madness.

However, in all that process they might have been conditioned to think that discussion and not using accepted language is hate and bigotry.

And as I have seen recently on another thread, there simply is no way to discuss some topics without being classed as hateful. It is like those testimonials, we can think any opinion we want to, but there is no way to articulate the opinion that is not hateful to some people.

Of course, it makes discussion impossible. And that is totalitarian and authoritarian. But apparently, we are the bad guys to be shamed.

Out of interest, did the OP ever comment on the cases where a transwoman claimed to be a biological woman?

because that woukd seem to be the eaters of their points to debate.

they said no transwomen claimed to be a biological women and we have provided examples where they have. Does OP think we are lying or do their have to change their viewpoint? And if not, why not?

I am sure some parents of trans identifying offspring are desperate to find 💯 validation. They think their life and the life of their child will be made easier if they only ever encounter validation. But they fail to acknowledge that at some point validation won’t be enough.

Well put - I think you are right.

• We keep seeing people coming on here with extreme views which are unsubstantiated and for which there is no evidence
• We keep seeing people who post and leave, or who won't listen to discussion, science or reason and keep posting nonsense
• We see men coming on here, claiming to be women and therefore representing the views of women (clearly not possible!)

At times it does seem as though it is not worth trying - if those people can't even accept the core biological / legal reality that you are the sex you were born and can't change, then it becomes very difficult to get them to accept that their other arguments are wrong...

In 40+ years of internet - from dial up bulletin boards to the fancy websites we have now, I think I have never seen so extreme a view as to believe that a man can become a woman - it is like claiming that a cat can become a saucepan, or that a pen can grow wings and become a transatlantic aeroplane - it is so outside the realms of reality and science that it has to be about the most extreme thing I have ever seen or heard - but it is great to hear that you do not agree with such absurdities...

those who stand for truth, science, the law and reality should stand together!

OP
Will you anwer my question this time please?

It's a genuine question....

@Keepthecat

Could you anwer the above question now please?

Apologies if I've missed your reply.

Genuinely interested.....

Actually it's incredibly easy for a man to become a woman, or a cat to become a saucepan, or a pen to become a transatlantic aeroplane.

All you need to do it to change the definition of "transatlantic aeroplane" to something that can be achieved by a pen, or "saucepan" to someting that can be achieved by a cat, or "woman" to something that can be achieved by a man.

Of course your pen still doesn't fly, because it's just a pen with a different name on it. Your cat will still be damaged if you put it on the stove. And your man will still have the same privileges and pose the same risks as he always did.

Because what changing the name doesn't do, which is the obvious thing that is so obvious that Genderist activists throw all the mud in the world around to hide, is make your newly minted "aeroplace" the same type of thing as all the existing old-version aeroplanes, or your saucepan have any relevance to things that are were previously thought to be saucepans, or your "woman" to have any moral right to the provisions put in place for female people

In short - if you have to totally redefine a thing to prove you are that thing, you are not that thing.

No I haven't written any cheques I expect the world to cash. The child in question is above the age where I have any say in the matter.

It comes with a whole host of emotions

What makes you think parents are fully signed up to the madness? It still doesn't stop it being upsetting to read such negative views and just increases the worries

It's not my problem if you have affirmed and enabled a delusional. THAT'S the harm. Not me being honest about reality.

I don't know what you mean about being desperate for 100% validation. That's not how I feel. Are you a parent of a trans child?

Who says I have? My daughter is still my biological daughter

It's just not how she sees herself

I think the point is that some parents have encouraged / pushed their children down a path based on lies and which may have included hormonal or surgical changes to their body... those parents often do look for total agreement as they need validation for their choices - they will continue arguing that 1 = 2 until the cows come home, because to admit that it is not possible is to bring down the edifice they built up of being sure in supporting / promoting / pushing their child's journey... it would be to admit that they have abused / harmed their child.

If though you are saying (which is what I am reading) that you have a trans child - a decision they have made at an age where you have no say, and potentially despite anything you might say, then I can understand that you must be torn between the easy factual truth of 'it is not possible to change sex' and the discord in the relationship with a child who somehow believes that it is possible.

A tough place to be. However, I think for many of us commentating on the world as it is now - to be supporting that premise or journey taken by a loved one is no different to any other fallacy or lie based journey - such as drugs / the mob / cults / etc. If a child stood there and said, I have become a penguin and am moving to an iceberg to live on fish - no-one would be at all surprised if your response was to not agree / believe / support - but part of the menace of the 'trans' movement is that those who are innocent are blamed if they don't support family members in the lie they try to live out. There is no way in which any child / adult is going to become a penguin and live on an iceberg and eat just fish - we all know that, equally there is no way that any human is going to change sex - that is also known, however the culture and web of deceit that has been built up makes it much harder to stand for truth and reality.

So, if you are in that position, my sympathy is with you - it is a tough place to be... however I don't think that acknowledging that means that there should be any reduction in the attempts to stop the trans movement from promulgating falsehoods / attacking women / threatening single sex spaces / damaging children / etc. It is possible to be simultaneously sorry for those in that position, and still (and even more strongly) want to make changes so that others are not dragged into that same place.

So, can I ask why you entered this thread and made such shaming posts initially?

Do you still stand by your posts?

Did your child understand that not everyone would be prepared to pretend that they had changed sex do you think?

Do they expect access to women's spaces?

If you are male you can not be a daughter. If you are female you can not be a son.

It doesn't matter how the hell you see yourself. That's reality.

You cant change reality.

It is not for other people to have to enable and go along with because it's a lie. The answer is no.

The sooner everyone gets this through their head and finds other ways to deal with their own discomfort that don't impinge on other people.

Validation is the key issue. Express yourself however you like, but don't expect validation. It's not our job to do this emotional labour at the expense of our safety and dignity. And yes this includes even nice people.

I don't mean to sound rude but is your post supposed to be a satire or is this genuinely your argument?

You said "I have a trans daughter - that doesn't equal being anti-women.", but no one has suggested that having a trans daughter would make you anti-women. That is an argument entirely constructed in your head. You appear to be saying that you have a female child with a trans identity. It's possible that if you had a male child presenting as female, wanting to access female only spaces with your support, some people may indeed consider you 'anti-women' but that isn't the case here is it?

Because it's really hard and upsetting reading all this negative stuff when you know your child will be facing that. There doesn't seem to be any compassion and reading some of these threads actually have given me nightmares and worried me so much. As far as saying 99.9% of the threads were about trans, yes I stand by that but at the same time I didn't know this board was specifically for trans discussions, I genuinely thought it was supposed to be a general feminist thread so it seemed quite shocking that nothing else really seemed to be discussed . And yes it does seem to be just the small minority posting. But I get why now though. I mean I think I'm allowed a little kickback in amongst the throng of negative views of trans people. There are a lot of pretty harsh views posted on these boards so I can't think that my little comments would bother anyone. However I shouldn't have come on the board at all as it's too upsetting