Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

Oh. I see we had yet another, why are you all so focused on 'trans issues' post. Like it isn't a day ending in 'y'?

And it is remarkable that people don't do their own fucking research on the available boards on MN and work out that there is another board and this one is where we were put. Just so we can have another poster to tell us how hateful our focus is.

But of course, any thing that questions the prevailing affirming only nature of the ideology that supports transgender identities is considered 'anti-trans', but then when it is pointed out that if that is the case we can say that that person who considered discussion around prioritising women and children's needs must be 'anti-women and children' the denial starts.

It seems like a script that we see daily at the moment. Posters who do this can never acknowledge their own entrenched prejudice though.

But I'll bugger off and do some work instead of derailing.

I agree with your post OP and once shared your hope that there was a place for an actual civil discussion and challenge to the extreme views on Mumsnet. But sadly have already realised that there is literally no point trying. They claim to represent the views of 'women' but do not want to hear from those of us who do not agree.

Well, you'd have to read it first

Extreme views on Mumsnet = sex is binary and cannot be changed.

Feel free to challenge this extreme view please. If it's that easy to understand should be a breeze for you.

Speaking as a your gen X counterpart, I have come through the Uni Butler Lacuna and out the other side. I feel very confident debating on sex and gender because not only do I know why I think what I do and the first principles on which it stands, I also know why they think what they do and why it doesn't invalidate my position.

And today I was finally motivated to make a meme for it...

Well fuck Datun. That would take effort and really, some people just want to shame others for posting on a board that they were pushed into because other people couldn't have the fucking impulse control to scroll past threads that they didn't want to interact with.

But, hey..... all the threads are all just about one general topic and it makes it just easier to make posts about how shameful we all are...

Fine, I agree with you. I was just going by the sub title of the board and didn't know the history of any of it. So I didn't know why nothing else seemed to be discussed but I get it now.
I'm feeling quite upset by my situation, just talking on here and I'm crying so I'm not best placed to have any rational discussion. I will clear off

It's really irritating. You can't talk about that here. You can't talk about it on there either. You have to go down in the basement behind a closed door with no window.

Five minutes later...

Why the fuck are you all down here in the basement behind a closed door with no window talking about this??

there is literally no point trying. They claim to represent the views of 'women' but do not want to hear from those of us who do not agree.

This is often said on this board but let me say I would LOVE to hear from those who disagree.

Put your points across, engage in civil discussion and challenge my "extreme views" with solid evidence.

The floor is yours.

There's another board here called something like "Parents of LGBT children" that might be useful?

What is there to discuss? If someone came on here and tried to persuade us the earth is flat and produced a 12th century map as proof should we all discuss the merits of their argument too?

LostInCatsFur

there are two other boards devoted to parents of trans children

Yep.

Look, there's no need to get so upset about it if it was a misunderstanding.

It's just that you posted on a thread called "Reflections on Trans Arguments" and grumbled at people talking about trans arguments.

Well remember PennyAnn... those posters are agreeing with the OP that the earth is flat and agree with their links.

But it is all about taking the opportunity to shame other posters and I doubt it will sink in at all. There seems to be a group of people who think there is a shield of righteousness around them that means they don't ever have to thinking critically about what they are agreeing with.

I'd actually be quite interested in that, Penny! 😄

I like to hear the for and against on any subject. But I just haven't heard any convincing arguments that make me agree women should give up their rights to spaces, sports and services to some males who decide they want them.

What, this group is about TRANS issues? I'm going to have to go somewhere else for my Hornby double-0 discussions.

I don't want to hear the views of people who do not agree, I want to hear their arguments. Why don't they agree? What are the flaws in my position? What does not stand up for them?

But we don't get that.

We either get the OP's Gish Gallop of sources that had they bothered to read what women here are saying first they would realise have been discussed and debunked already - and note that does not mean that the debunking was correct, it just means if you jump in after it's happened you need to deal with the argument as it now stands and address the debunking, not jump onto square one of the board then complain when everyone else says "uh yeah, we've done that. What else have you got?" - or we get "You are all awful people!!! Oh, well, ok I didn't know that. I don't KNOW alright??? All I know is that my trans friend is lovely so you must be wrong and I just came here to talk to you and you are awful and have bullied me off!!", or we get "You are just bigots who think trans women are all rapists and perverts" (I don't, I just think they are not any closer to being a woman than any other man and certainly not in a way that makes a male body interchangeable with a female one).

I am openminded but I have thought about this for a long time, not least because it is the outlier in the bundle of views I do sign up to. I know why I think what I think. So while I acknowledge others have other views and hold them equally strongly without for the most part being bad people, you can't convince me what I think is wrong if you can't convince me you understand why I think it. To change my mind you need to show me either my fundamental observations are wrong or the logic I build on top of them doesn't stand up.

Apparently, we are a cult and that we are same tiny amount of posters just repeating our views. And we are hypocritical.

I said this on another thread, when did it become acceptable to come and post on boards as a new poster and make negative generalisations and direct accusations at regular posters and then claim that they are not open for discussion? When did that behaviour, which is not engaging positively or even neutrally, become acceptable and righteous?

And then cry when you are called out for your attempts to shame and scold the posters

When it belongs to the artists formerly known as the right side of history.

Apparently.

This may sound harsh, but I'm trying to be as neutral as I can

The problem for parents of 'trans children' is this - have they, or other activists, or medical professionals Qwritten cheques to their children that they expect everyone else to cash?

Because the world is under no obligation to pretend that your child changed sex. Or grant them entry to sex specific spaces that don't belong to them.

If the trans people in question have no expectations of that, they just want to present as the opposite sex, then cool, there are no issues.

But if they do, other people's rights, other people's senses, other people's fact based understanding of the world comes into play.

I would hope that parents of children thinking of transitioning would be having some hard conversations about that before embarking on the process.

I wonder if that comes with the realisation of just how much pressure you (a general you) are under to conform to what is considered the righteous group or to accommodate loved ones.

I would hope so too.

And yet, even if people just came onto this board and read the links that people posted they probably would end up with a variety of information that they can work through and work out their position better. If they read a link they disagree with, it is helpful to work out why they disagree with it and whether that disagreement comes from a basis of fact and established science, or pure emotion.