Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

What are all these negative views of trans people that you're talking about?

Someone did say it meant I was anti- women

But,really, what has anyone said that’s so bad. Most of the comments are along the lines that no one can change sex and single sex spaces are sometimes important.

No one has threatened to harm trans people in any way, have they?

We women often get rape and death threats just for saying we believe sex is more important than gender. We have been physically attacked, fired and worse at the hands of TRAs, so I really don’t understand why we’re portrayed as the bad guys.

This suggested it

I'd like to see that, because there is more than one contributor to this board with a tans-identifying child, and I've never seen their child used to support an accusation of being anti-women

Posted above

This is the problem with the lack of clear language. I have no idea if @LostInCatsFur child is male or female.

I can’t see anything that says having a trans child makes you anti women

Well no. It would seem very pointless to most of us (I hope) to discuss whether the earth was flat.

But to assume that anyone other than you must be about to talk nonsense and stop listening - before you have any idea what they would say - is almost certainly why there are so many commenters saying there's no point attempting to have any real discussion on these boards.

I don't think she believes she has actually changed sex at all. That would be impossible. But who knows what goes on inside someone's head. She seems happy with it. But the climate around trans people makes me sick with worry and yes talking about it does make me cry.

Why do you think the climate is how it is?

She's a biological female

I do think that it can be tricky to read the posts dispassionately - everyone brings their own context...

but the 'anti-trans' feeling you mention is not anti-trans - there are many examples on here of real compassionate understanding about how tough it must be to have body dysmorphia, or to be a parent of someone sucked into the trans world... there are some really positive discussions with some genuine trans people exploring some of the thinking / psychology / feelings etc.

but none of that negates the need to:

• correct the pendulum which has swung hugely in the direction of believing the impossible - that you can change sex
• making sure that arguments and discussions are based on truth / reality / the law
• condemn the vitriolic, aggressive, abusive language and actions of a small minority of (mainly) 'trans-women' who believe they can bully others into submission
• to support those who are oppressed by this movement (women generally, but also in fact those who have been sucked in as victims - esp. children and very often autistic girls etc.)
• to support with legal action those who have been wronged for standing up for truth and women etc.
• and so on...

There seems to be a common misunderstanding that to be compassionate there must be compromise - no

There can be compassion and empathy without compromising one iota the core truths based on biology / reality & the law.

This is not aimed at you - it is aimed at pushing back against the small minority who have used the trans ideology to dominate and oppress women - it is about restoring justice. In doing that, yes - huge amounts of sympathy for those caught up in it - but that sympathy will never mean that the core truths will be compromised. You are born a boy or girl and you stay that way - truth / biology / law / etc. Zero compromise.

Is it genuinely my position? Yes. I understand the various positions Genderists are coming from, some of which I actually agree with.

However none of the Genderist beliefs when you look at them clearly in any way justify undoing the social or legal recognition that female humans exist, that we have a history of oppression, marginalisation and abuse because of our bodies and because of the narratives society constructs around our bodies, that because of this we have different challenges to male people, and that sometimes it is appropriate to have single sex language, protections and opportunities to mitigate these challenges and allow us the same opportunity to to live socially and financially empowered lives that men have.

I believe it is not an act of hate to say these things, nor to differentiate ourselves, our experiences and our needs from those of men who believe they are women, nor to speak of our experiences as women, experiences based in our embodiment as female rather than male.

I find Genderists assume the people who disagree with them simply haven't given the topic much thought, assume that "Gender Critical" means "transGender Critical" and we are still stuck in the same old sexist ideas of what men and women can think, wear and do, as opposed "Gender Critical", critical of the social constructs of gender regardless of whether they are being performed in a "cisgender" or "transgender" way. Hence the meme.

What out of that do you disagree with?

But discussing whether men can magically change into women is up for discussion because somehow that is possible?

right

I have a daughter and it’s really hard and upsetting that there are people out there advocating for her to lose her single sex provision.

The majority of posters on here just want males to stay out of female spaces. That’s all. Not anti trans at all. If it was, there would be more posts about Transmen.

Perhaps not specifically having a trans child but being called pro-trans presumably because my daughter is a trans identifying female

I see. Thank you for answering.

When you read these so called negative views about trans people, do you understand that posters are generally referring to male people
with transgender identities who demand access to female single sex provisions? And who too often use female people with transgender identities as political leverage?

Or have you read the posts and wrongly assumed that they refer to female people with transgender identities when they might not?

Do you think that female people, your daughter included, should be able to expect their single sex provisions (spaces, services, sports, and opportunities) are kept single sex? Because the majority of the posters on this board do support that.

Or have you not read the threads closely and missed this?

And do you understand this thread was started in bad faith? This is a bad faith thread! The links in the opening post are either out of date or hopelessly biased and ideological and don’t represent reality and established fact?

I agree with you. I don't have a trans daughter, but my daughter does have trans-identifying friends and the amount of negativity they are facing has escalated massively since the SC judgement.

That isn't the same thing as me saying the SC was wrong, but the very, very real fact is that many people have a very narrow view of gender and are prepared to aggressively assert that view when they falsely feel it is under threat. The SC judgement has only been seen by many as legitimizing their attack on the identities of some of the trans community.

I think what LostInCatsFur is further worried about is that an online space that's supposed to be a haven for open and free discussion is infected by a sizeable number of people who are fanatically obsessed with the idea that trans rights should be curtailed - and maybe eliminated altogether.
It's a legitimate fear. Such behaviour is ugly, morally bankrupt, and unbecoming of anyone who wants to consider themselves a reasonable human being.

Yep. For me five stages

(1) Unthinking "TWAW, be kind"
(2) "I have a few questions, I better do a bit of research and thinking"
(3) "TWANW, TWAM, because if TWAW then no man or woman has sex or sexual orientation based rights"
(4) "But I will continue to educate myself"
(5) "What the hell!?!??!! This is so much worse than I thought. Not only is it true that TWAM, just about every single aspect of the whole ideology is terrible or worse."

But nobody here has said any of that? We don’t think transpeople should have extra rights, like the right to single spaces that aren’t theirs, but other than that, they have the same rights as everyone and none of us want to take those away.

Hi LostinCatsFut and child. I hope you and your child find the help you need to navigate. It's so hard especially with the increasingly nasty atmosphere in the UK from some I think folks on here really don't see how negative and vicious they come across, or perhaps they just don't care. As you said it's (hopefully) a few keyboard warriors, and hopefully the calmer voices are just not expressed here. Not all women view trans feelings and folks in the same way.

The logic is partly as I explained.

If you are fully supportive of trans rights, this includes the extreme transgender activists demands that mean that single sex provisions for female people are effectively removed or ineffective in protecting female people. Including removing the unique words we need to describe ourselves. That being, woman, girl , female etc.

So therefore, if you fully support these things you should expect to be called anti-woman in return for declaring women campaigning and discussing retaining single sex provisions as ‘anti-trans’.

Who is arguing for trans rights to be curtailed?

What rights are you talking about?

Here, here. Although I do think that, as I think LostInCatsFur has already alluded to, it's sometimes better to step away from social media and forums like this from time to time. The keyboard warriors are disproportionately loud, and it can get to you.

LostInCatsFur, if I might remind you of a line from Atwood's 'Handmaid's Tale':

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum