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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 08:43

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:28

Has the OP been back?

Or did they slink back to Reddit to lick their wounds?

😂😂😂

He’s over on the Stephen Fry thread using bigly words. Everyone is cowed and embarrassed and is quickly changing their minds.

CassOle · 19/06/2025 08:53

I just realised the timeline. Lime corrected us for calling Isla Bryson 'He' and 'Him' - yes, that is the double rapist, formerly known as Adam Graham, with the wig and pink leggings 'bulge' who Nicola Sturgeon accidentally invented 'rapist gender' for.

When we did not cowtow to the demanded pronouns, Lime must have gone off to find and then dump the gish gallop that is the OP of this thread.

Hell has no delusion like a trans activist scorned... or something.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 08:55

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 08:43

He’s over on the Stephen Fry thread using bigly words. Everyone is cowed and embarrassed and is quickly changing their minds.

Biggly

or

just long and impenetrable?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:01

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 08:55

Biggly

or

just long and impenetrable?

I’m going to go with undergraduate philosophy student who just found a thesaurus.

But also, how dare you taunt me with the bigly letters. I still have 735 anticlockwise cauldron stirs to go, and I’m getting RSI.

JuneJustRains · 19/06/2025 09:02

the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood

Eh?

Who excluded them from womanhood? Very shortsighted people?

BloominNora · 19/06/2025 09:14

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.

Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

OK - so putting aside the incredibly patronising tone that suggests those of us who are gender critical have only come to those views because we've read it in the right wing press and don't have the ability and education to understand the issues for ourselves......

Yes gender and sex are two different things, but it is a complex combination of both of those things that makes a 'woman'. From the day we are born and observed as male or female from our secondary sex characteristics, we are slotted into the boy or girl gender box.

Even if our parents are enlightened and know that it doesn't matter one bit if a boy like to wear dresses and play with dolls or a girl likes to wear boys clothes, play with cars and get muddy, we are still boxed in by wider societies expectations and reactions to that.

For women and girls the formative experiences that come from that - the casual sexism, lack of opportunity, medical ignorance, abuse, religious oppression all have a huge impact - and then comes puberty with the changing body leading to increased leering from boys and men and the scary bleeding which is ridiculously still so taboo (and for women and girls in some countries, deadly)!

Boys and men have their own versions of all of that.

That means no matter how much a female identifies as whatever societies version of 'man' is and no matter how much a man identifies as whatever societies version of a 'woman' is, they can never be those things because they simply do not have the complex experiences that go into creating those identities from birth.

Single sex spaces are important where physical sex is an issue - prisons and sports due to differences in strength and bodies, rape crisis centres because of the trauma elements of being raped by someone who is male bodied and changing rooms and toilets because of the risk to females when so many male bodied people still think it is ok to leer at and assault people who are female bodied.

For people who are born and observed as male or female at birth and who then go through the puberty relating to that observed sex, there should be absolutely no debate whatsoever as to whether they can enter those spaces designed for the opposite sex.

For those with DSD's like Imane Khalif, I think the argument is much more nuanced (and I don't agree with people who call her a man). She was born with female secondary sex characteristics, observed female at birth and brought up female in a muslim country. She would have had all of the same formative experiences as any other girl, with her DSD only being identified at puberty (if at all before she was tested as part of her sporting career).

I do believe that with the DSD being identified, she shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports - mostly due to the safety aspect (which is a shame, but no different to someone who has to give up their sport for any other health reason) but as long as she continues to want to identify as a woman, I personally have no issue with that - because having been brought up as a girl, and having those secondary sex characteristics, she will have an innate understanding of what that means, even without female puberty.

Beyond those with DSDs (who have consistently said they do not want to be used a pawn by either side in this debate), the issue with the 'trans' community is that it is too wide an umbrella which has led to a loss of nuance and extreme entrenched positions on both sides.

There are people who are genuinely trans - and by that I mean have body dysmorphia so severe that their doctors think the only way for them to be well is to live as the opposite sex, there should be discussions around how they can access spaces that allow them to feel safe - and before all of this became such an issue, there was quiet acceptance of those people in toilets and changing rooms. They are not women, they know they are not women, but they are just trying their best to live their lives (Debbie Hayton for example - and I have known a couple of people who would fit into this in real life).

When men who wanted to claim to be women for other reasons started to adopt the trans label - that is where the issues started - from the worst case scenarios of men doing it to access sensitive female spaces like prisons or escape more severe punishments (Isla Bryson), to those who simply have a fetish and like to dress in women's clothes and go by traditionally female names but do not have genuine body dysmorphia and do not even attempt to live fully as women (MP Jamie Wallis, Eddie Izzard).

Those people are not women, no matter what clothes they wear or name they go by. Not only did they go through 'boy' childhoods and male puberty, they have spent large portions of their adulthood as men. They do not have either the physical elements nor have they ever experienced the societal and cultural elements of womanhood which is why they shouldn't be accepted as 'women'.

I had a hell of a lot of respect for Eddie Izzard when he was openly a transvestite, before all of the 'girl mode' / 'boy mode' / Suzie nonsense started. I adored the fact that he wore skirts, dresses and makeup, breaking down the gender stereotypes and sticking his finger up to toxic masculinity.

Men like him could be such a force for good in the world, breaking down harmful stereotypes, showing the world that it doesn't matter what you wear or even call yourself, what matters is who you are, but instead they choose to go down the regressive route and embed those harmful stereotypes even further.

More of those men need to take a leaf out the book of the men from Strictly. Nikita Kuzmin and Vito Koppola - both incredibly masculine, straight (or maybe bi), but neither have a problem with wearing 'women's' clothes or dancing intimately with other men. Similarly gay and arguably more effeminate men like Layton Williams and Johanas Radebe look particularly fabulous in 'womens' clothes - but they are all men, don't try to claim to be women and they are bloody fabulous for it!

Wear what you want to wear, use whatever name you want to use, but don't try and claim to be something that you are not and can have absolutely no concept of.

You want to wear dresses and make-up and call yourself Jane, go for it! You want spaces where you can go so that you do not have to use 'mens' toilets or changing rooms, fight for that third space and I'll be right there fighting with you.

You need rape crisis centres but don't want to go to a men's group session - no problem, work to get specialist 1-2-1 or trans group therapy made more widely available.

Want to play sport, but not in the men's category? Again, fight for an 'open' or third category to be set up.

Just respect that until society sorts itself out and stamps out sex based violence and regressive stereotypes and moves away from patriarchy and religious oppression, women will need single sex spaces.

If as much effort had been put into all of the above, instead of trying to break down the hard fought for rights and spaces created for women and girls, society would be a much nicer and fairer place and the toxic, vile, extreme right, would have much less ammunition to use in gaining their power.

TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:15

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:01

I’m going to go with undergraduate philosophy student who just found a thesaurus.

But also, how dare you taunt me with the bigly letters. I still have 735 anticlockwise cauldron stirs to go, and I’m getting RSI.

Edited

Hold on now, back in the days we philosophy students were taught how to analyse and criticise! No offense taken with opposing arguments, we were encouraged to debate and think. Halcyon days...

50 more stirs for you :)

Loving all the knowledgeable MNers coming out with all the facts, Go Vipers.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 09:17

CassOle · 19/06/2025 08:53

I just realised the timeline. Lime corrected us for calling Isla Bryson 'He' and 'Him' - yes, that is the double rapist, formerly known as Adam Graham, with the wig and pink leggings 'bulge' who Nicola Sturgeon accidentally invented 'rapist gender' for.

When we did not cowtow to the demanded pronouns, Lime must have gone off to find and then dump the gish gallop that is the OP of this thread.

Hell has no delusion like a trans activist scorned... or something.

Was it Isla Bryson? I thought it was Jamie Wallace - The First Trans MP? Or did he do that too?

CassOle · 19/06/2025 09:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 09:17

Was it Isla Bryson? I thought it was Jamie Wallace - The First Trans MP? Or did he do that too?

Oh, you are right.

Sorry, I should have checked.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:27

TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:15

Hold on now, back in the days we philosophy students were taught how to analyse and criticise! No offense taken with opposing arguments, we were encouraged to debate and think. Halcyon days...

50 more stirs for you :)

Loving all the knowledgeable MNers coming out with all the facts, Go Vipers.

Apologies. Shall we go with current first year undergraduate philosophy student? Because I do agree that once upon a time philosophy was where you went to learn how to put together an argument that wasn’t held together with worn-out pants elastic and hope.

Boiledbeetle · 19/06/2025 09:28

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:01

I’m going to go with undergraduate philosophy student who just found a thesaurus.

But also, how dare you taunt me with the bigly letters. I still have 735 anticlockwise cauldron stirs to go, and I’m getting RSI.

Edited

Only 734 to go now.

Reflections on Trans Arguments
TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:48

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:27

Apologies. Shall we go with current first year undergraduate philosophy student? Because I do agree that once upon a time philosophy was where you went to learn how to put together an argument that wasn’t held together with worn-out pants elastic and hope.

I think I'm in love with you, the way you have with words... "worn-out pants elastic and hope" is exactly how my life is held togetherGrin

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:52

TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:48

I think I'm in love with you, the way you have with words... "worn-out pants elastic and hope" is exactly how my life is held togetherGrin

Mine too, sadly 🤣

🥰

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:54

Boiledbeetle · 19/06/2025 09:28

Only 734 to go now.

Ok, I know I’ve made it now. I’ve been immortalised by the inimitable artistic skills of @Boiledbeetle. She even got my good side!

lechiffre55 · 19/06/2025 10:02

ApocalipstickNow · 19/06/2025 08:01

I think, at this stage, you may as well be shouting “what are the 39 Steps?!”😂

I laughed out loud, and then had an extra chuckle at "at this stage" given the Mr Memory context.

JessaWoo · 19/06/2025 10:17

Waitwhat23 · 19/06/2025 08:03

OP, when even other TRA's are elbowing you and hissing 'will you shut up!', it might be time to have a wee period of contemplation.

Who are the TRAs you are referring to?

lechiffre55 · 19/06/2025 10:21

I don't think the OP left because of the replies, I don't believe the OP had any intention of reading any replies. It was just a telling off for the wicked TERFs.

Most of the bolded headline points have thicko subtitles that the OP is trying to strawman into the GC argument. It reads like a bingo card, including of course the all time classic gold standard Daily Mail reference. This is not good faith argument, it's self righteous moral superiority scalding the thickos for being thick. If only they weren't so thick they'd see I'm right. The fact that the OP can be dismantled so easily e.g. My total lack of medical knowledge says so! vs Cass Review is irrelevant. This is a moral crusade against TERF thickos not an argument on the merits.

That's wot I done heard!
My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
I read it on teh internets!
Any fule knowe that!
I read it in the Daily Mail!
I'm scared!
Think of the Children!

potpourree · 19/06/2025 10:29

No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male.

I'm assuming this is a cheeky nod demonstrating that the entire OP is a rather weak joke. Oh really, no-one has claimed this, you say... <eyes IW>
What about 'somatically female', hmmm...

Boiledbeetle · 19/06/2025 10:47

The OP has commented about this thread on a different thread.

Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 10:49

Boiledbeetle · 19/06/2025 10:47

The OP has commented about this thread on a different thread.

Someone can't handle being ratioed.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/06/2025 10:54

What a doofus

people can be stupid on the internet, as amply demonstrated by the OP. The job at hand is to make sure no one takes them seriously

Thelnebriati · 19/06/2025 10:55

I take those kinds of threads as proof that its always a school holiday somewhere.

TheyreStillGoingWithThemPlumsKerr · 19/06/2025 12:05

I got second-hand embarrassment reading that

PriOn1 · 19/06/2025 12:23

TheyreStillGoingWithThemPlumsKerr · 19/06/2025 12:05

I got second-hand embarrassment reading that

I’m honestly amazed anyone bothered to read it!

Also wondering whether the OP actually put the whole thing together or whether it’s a cut and paste job. If self-written, kudos for wasting your own time, OP. I can’t imagine many read past the first few lines and at least while you’re wasting your time here, you’re not off actually harming less hardy women somewhere else.

As if such facile arguments are going to have any effect on the women of this board, who will have refuted everything listed and discussed all the points in detail and come to an understanding based on facts and common sense and not emotive lies.

Can I recommend Twitter, OP? You might be able to improve your debating skills, once you’ve made your points a lot more punchy and actually have to back them up with real evidence.

potpourree · 19/06/2025 12:29

Remember - this is all they've got.
If they had better, they'd throw it at us. This is literally it. The sum total of how they've arrived at their really logical and ethical, inclusive belief that just happens to include bullying women.

You can see why people like fox-botherer are capitalising on it!

Swipe left for the next trending thread