Does Imane Khelif even have a DSD?

[BeLemonNow]

Giving the widespread reporting of a previous test showing Imane Khelif is biologically male / XY is there actually any evidence as to whether or not they even have a Disorder of Sexual Development (DSD). Or is this straightforward fraud? I know there was speculation before...

By DSD, going by NHS information, in this case I mean XY chromosomes with an abnormality causing a baby's genitals to look female (but not a DSD where there's XY and some sort of penis even if smaller than normal). To be clear, I am aware that these differences are usually apparent by puberty. It looks likely Imane went through male puberty.

Apologies if this has been covered in a different thread, but I cannot see it anywhere. I am aware that the only IOC criteria to compete at the Olympics was a female passport - ridiculous really - but that Imane has been claiming to be living as a woman since birth.

Apologies again, it started as a reply to a point a pp made that I don’t agree with, so I went off course I agree and it’s mostly not relevant to IK’s position as I understand it, as male puberty seems to have taken place.

It’s relevant to rarer DSDs I think. I don’t know the DSD profile of competitors in general.

I think all these arguments, about "people with DSDs are always male or female" versus "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that" are a bit of a gift to the TRAs.

I prefer to simplify it to:

DSDs are very, very rare, but well-understood, and people with them usually find out early in life.

They have a mixture of attributes and are allowed to choose their sex in line with what works medically and socially.

In the UK, they are allowed to change their birth registration retroactively.

This is completely different from the GRC process, which is designed for people with congruent attributes on which their original birth registration was based. It's a non-overlapping Venn diagram.

I accept that Khelif can be a woman if he wants, and he wouldn't need to change his birth registration. I might do the same myself, given that the alternatives are to be a man without external genitals (socially difficult) or a lot of intrusive feminisation procedures (which would have needed to start in childhood).

Anyone who's gone through male puberty shouldn't compete with women though.

So when TRA friend says it's complicated, I just give them the Paddington hard stare and say 'but DSDs are only 2 in 10,000 aren't they? And everyone else is clearly one or the other, including all trans people. What's complicated?'

DSDs are very, very rare, but well-understood, and people with them usually find out early in life.

@theilltemperedqueenofspacetime
I agree with a lot of what you say but…

DSDs are not as rare as all that. The incidence of Kleinfelters is about 1 - 2.5 in a 1000 I believe, just taking one example.

Some (a minority) aren’t well understood at all as they’re so rare.

Many people with DSDs do not find out early in life, if at all.

I’m not a TRA, but the facts are the facts.

The higher figure of 1-2% relates to infants with any degree of abnormality of the reproductive system, whilst the 0.018% figure relates only to those where sex determination requires further investigation; only the latter are relevant to a discussion of whether sex itself is 'complicated'.

Klinefelters boys are obviously boys; they have no female attributes that might cause them to be mis-sexed at birth.

As to vanishingly rare DSDs, and people who have one but never find out, how do they change the picture? Reproductive development in embryos is nevertheless well-understood, even if we haven't yet seen every single way in which it can go wrong.

The higher figure of 1-2% relates to infants with any degree of abnormality of the reproductive system, whilst the 0.018% figure relates only to those where sex determination requires further investigation; only the latter are relevant to a discussion of whether sex itself is 'complicated'.

Sure, but that’s not the same as saying the incidence of DSDs is 2 in 10,000 to those who ask ( it can be higher in areas with consanguinity btw).
Most people with DSDs don’t have genital ambiguity at birth.

You've mentioned upthread some rare DSDs which result in a genuine difficulty in deciding what sex should be assigned (I think we agree that patient choice is paramount here). TRAs like to reference these as proof that sex is a spectrum, but in a sleight of hand then pretend that these cases are very common by adding to them every instance of a birth defect affecting the reproductive tract. We need to resist this sort of trickery, not get sucked into arguing the minutiae.

DSDs that make it difficult to assign a sex are very rare, and almost by definition, will not be found in a transgender person, who must have an assigned sex to transition from.

Or, to put it another way, a person with a DSD who alters their birth registration is correcting a medical mis-assignment, not transitioning.

We need to resist this sort of trickery, not get sucked into arguing the minutiae.

Just stating the facts is resisting the trickery. I’m not trying to argue the minutiae, just stating the facts here.

There’s no point giving inaccurate information if you’re arguing with TRAs, that just weakens your position and strengthens theirs. Eg it’s better not to say ‘DSDs’ when quoting percentages when what one is really referring to is a subset of DSDs. It’s too easy for TRAs to refute and your point gets lost in argument.

And I do think overconfidence can be an issue sometimes. There is still an awful lot to learn about human biology.

C4 have just broadcast Trump Vs the truth. In it they showed Trump condemning the male boxers competing in the female category. C4 says Imane was born female and the IOC confirmed this. I wanted to complain but not sure I’m well armed unless it’s clear that he has 5-ARD.

The IOC simply confirmed that IK has a female passport.

I think the medical information we have has been leaked but it’s clear IK has a male DSD.

I've done a bit of a search and asked Chat GPT. IOC has said that Khelif was born female and brought up female.

The IOC asked for a female passport as Eresh said to compete. Khelif's father has waved a birth certificate. But there hasn't been any independent verification Chat GPT could find, by the IOC or anyone else.

It's worth noting that even if Khelif does have a female birth certificate it doesn't follow they were born female. Its more complex with DSDs.

One possibility is that they were born with indeterminate genitalia or a micro penis and the parents / midwife etc. decided to raise them as a girl rather than a boy.

Algeria has a civil register of births. Chat GPT did not find a statement from the Algerian Ministry of Interior or Civil Registry confirming or denying what the registry entry says.

There's no evidence IOC or anyone has checked or verified the birth register, which is odd.

I got it Chat GPT to check in French and Arabic as well.

You've got to wonder if Khelif was assigned female at birth why noone has checked the birth register. That said it isn't something the IOC routinely does.

And I don't know what the privacy laws are in Algeria or how accurate the birth register is etc.

Sorry for long waffly post once you start asking Chat GPT stuff you get sucked in!

The IoC criterion was simply passport sex. No need for them to check birth registers - why take the risk of finding out something you don't want to know?

Rarity won't save you from making a fallacious argument from ignorance.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

@howseitgoin you've cornered the market in ignorance and tin eardness. Isn't it time to repost some of your discredited links again whilst ignoring everyone pointing out the lies and obfuscation?

Exactly. That’s all the IOC have checked and all their policy needs.

I think she'll have been registered female at birth. Athletes can still be subjected to physical, including genital, inspections, and she wouldn't want to risk that unless she (still) had superficially female external genitalia. (Semenya describes having a trans -'vaginal' ultrasound which revealed her internal testes.)

It's clear from visual inspection that Khelif is gonadally male and T-sensitive: it's this that makes it unsafe and unfair for her to compete in the women's category.

It seems highly likely that he was incorrectly observed and recorded as being female at birth, and there is a very good chance that if this is what happened it happened as a result of him having a DSD that only males can have. Athletes can have simple cheek swabs - less intrusive than the drug testing they have to go through - in order to determine their sex with certainty. It's clear from visual inspection that Khelif is male. It is being male that makes it unfair if he were to compete in the women's category - the fact that it is also very unsafe is what makes it a million times worse and proves how utterly lacking in morals the IOC, Khelif and anyone else who facilitated men beating up women is.

It is suspicious Algeria has not claimed they've checked Khelif is registered female on their national birth register.

He already has had medical specialists declare that he is male.

The fact that the Algerian medical specialist stated that they were suppressing testosterone leaves no doubt that he is male. No female ever has to reduce or suppress ‘testosterone’ for qualification to the female sports category.

That Khelif was registered at birth has been leveraged for this male athlete’s personal gain. He has capitalised on the error.

The fact that the Algerian medical specialist stated that they were suppressing testosterone leaves no doubt that he is male. No female ever has to suppress testosterone for qualification to the female sports category.

I think this is the key, not the birth registration (likely actually female) or the failed WBO karyotype test (C4 will just blame a Russian conspiracy).

@Justwrong68 wants to complain to C4. The above statement from the Algerian team proves that Khelif has testes, is T-sensitive, and therefore has been through male puberty, giving her all the physiological advantages of an adult male. Any other wording is likely to raise semantic/philosophical difficulties which could cause a C4 researcher's brain to explode.

At the risk of being accused of the old genital obsession (because women who want single sex spaces and sex based rights are of course the perverted ones), it's worth remembering that while the genitals of males with Khelif's DSD don't look standard for males, they often don't look standard for female either (and why would they, they're male). However, in a patriarchal society, when a baby appears to be non-standard and might therefore be considered to be somehow faulty, it is more likely to be decided to be female. It's often more acceptable that it should be a girl who is not "right" rather than a boy.

I also doubt that Khelif lives in any other way as female. When you consider the physical contact that he has with his coaching and management team, that would be unacceptable for any female athlete.

The ring side hand pat on what would be a breast if either of those two men considered that Khelif ‘lived’ as female would be an international sexual harassment scandal. Not one media outlet mentioned it.

Khelif fully knows that he is male and I doubt he lives as a female person in any capacity except to continue the reminder that he was erroroneously categorised as female on a birth certificate.

There’s a picture of Khelif jogging which I thought was Cristiano Ronaldo. If you’ve seen it you probably know which one I mean.

I remember it.

Those q angles were very clear!

I want to know though why we are to respect this male athlete when he shows fuck all respect for any female athlete.